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> Rules for Breaking Limbs?, Do i need to house rule it?
Guest_whatevs_*
post Jan 22 2011, 02:30 AM
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Are there rules in any of the books regarding brokem limbs or bones? Iskimmed sr4a and arsenal and couldn't find anything. If they dont exist, does anyone have any house rules for this sort of thing?
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Aku
post Jan 22 2011, 03:29 AM
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what exactly are you looking for? in game effects (like stat reductions?) healing times?
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Jhaiisiin
post Jan 22 2011, 03:38 AM
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There are no rules for location specific damage, either causing or the effect of.

Were it me, I'd rule it was a strength roll with a threshold equal to half of the target's body to break a limb. Bone strengthening augmentations add their increase to body directly to the threshhold. After all, you're trying to break superdense bone or metal at that point.

Rough and off thhe top of my head, but maybe a good starting point.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 22 2011, 03:54 AM
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There *are* rules for Severe Wounds, in Augmentation.

Broken Bones and Crippling Breaks are on p121, as are sprains, etc.
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Jhaiisiin
post Jan 22 2011, 04:00 AM
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Those are for just what can happen when you get really hurt. I'm guessing it's not what the OP is wanting, though I could be wrong.

We of Dumpshock require clarification, OP!
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 22 2011, 04:02 AM
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*shrug*. It's the only rules for exactly what he's asking that I know of. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

These rules are applied for glitches/critical glitches on damage resistance or healing tests, and large chunks of damage at once.
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Teryn180
post Jan 22 2011, 04:15 AM
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I'm actually kind of curious about this one. Just how do you handle it other then arbitrary GM decision when someone relatively strong is trying to break your arm (or anything else) without cutting or blowing it off?
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 22 2011, 04:19 AM
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Well, bone lacing used to say something like 'effectively unbreakable', and I assume that bone density is similar. Other than that, you're right: it's GM-makes-something-up territory. It's not part of the normal SR physical combat system. Perhaps some kind of Called Shot (break arm) test applied to grappling?
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Omenowl
post Jan 22 2011, 04:40 AM
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I would simply use it for dramatic effect and because of a massive wound or glitch. It does make it a lot grittier, but I think it is a good way to make sure people understand combat is ugly.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 22 2011, 04:45 AM
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Well, that last question (as I understood it) was 'what if someone wants to do this on purpose?', instead of as an appropriate gritty glitch result.
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Omenowl
post Jan 22 2011, 04:55 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 21 2011, 10:45 PM) *
Well, that last question (as I understood it) was 'what if someone wants to do this on purpose?', instead of as an appropriate gritty glitch result.


I would use this as physical damage in excess of the body attribute.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 22 2011, 05:12 AM
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… But what if the intended action was 'break this guy's arm'; what's the appropriate action/test there? Yes, you could make a normal attack and either deal more than 7 boxes of damage, or have the target glitch/crit glitch on the damage resistance test (per the optional Severe Wound rules). That's not really the same thing, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Guest_whatevs_*
post Jan 22 2011, 05:26 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 21 2011, 10:54 PM) *
There *are* rules for Severe Wounds, in Augmentation.

Broken Bones and Crippling Breaks are on p121, as are sprains, etc.


This is exactly what i'm looking for. Makes sense that i missed it in augmentation, havnt read the entire thing. Cheers!
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Omenowl
post Jan 22 2011, 05:34 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 21 2011, 11:12 PM) *
… But what if the intended action was 'break this guy's arm'; what's the appropriate action/test there? Yes, you could make a normal attack and either deal more than 7 boxes of damage, or have the target glitch/crit glitch on the damage resistance test (per the optional Severe Wound rules). That's not really the same thing, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


If the guy has a 7 body then I expect it to be hard to break his arm. Now the optional rules for a called shot are given in the SR4a book. One of the options is to allow for other effects. The dice penalty would be determined by the GM and then to see how it goes from there.
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Guest_whatevs_*
post Jan 22 2011, 05:43 AM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Jan 21 2011, 11:00 PM) *
Those are for just what can happen when you get really hurt. I'm guessing it's not what the OP is wanting, though I could be wrong.

We of Dumpshock require clarification, OP!


Yeah, I was intentionally a little vague. You guys guessed it though (typical dumpshock awesomeness). I have a physad that im making, and i want to combine subduing combat (joint lock) + wildcat martial arts bonuses to call a shot + smashing blow + strebgth boost to break limbs (first thought: cyber or regular arm).

The way i figure it, if the desired affect is on paper somewhere it's easier to convince a gm to apply them.

As for attack rolls, using my scenario above, i figured successfull subdue process up to the point where you get the option to inflict stun damage automatically, then hope for a little gm leeway and ask for a called shot instead. Add superior position bonus using smashing blow (target cant movc when subdued), then hope for 7 damage to smash the arm. I'd supplement the whole thing w/ str and bod boosts.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 22 2011, 05:43 AM
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Actually, the 7 boxes is a fixed threshold in the Severe Wounds rules, but I did notice your Body-based suggestion. And I did suggest using the existing Called Shot rules, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think the question is, 'what's a good mechanic for resolving this?', presumably without resorting to GM-fudging.

Your suggestion is (correct me, of course), to make a normal Called Shot using a GM-fudged penalty (not the standard -4), and then… do 'Body+1' boxes of damage? Pre- or post-soak? How does the GM choose the penalty? And, most important by far, is it balanced? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Always the tricky part, it should obviously be easy enough to be worth investing in, and hard enough to be a tradeoff.

Jhaiisiin suggested involving bone-related bonuses, but I'll not that bone lacing has no rating, and the rules (just fluff?) suggests that any variety makes your bones all but unbreakable. What's the right way to account for that? My two cents is probably to just accept it and say 'can't be broken by any reasonable means'.
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Omenowl
post Jan 22 2011, 05:55 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 21 2011, 11:43 PM) *
Actually, the 7 boxes is a fixed threshold in the Severe Wounds rules, but I did notice your Body-based suggestion. And I did suggest using the existing Called Shot rules, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think the question is, 'what's a good mechanic for resolving this?', presumably without resorting to GM-fudging.

Your suggestion is (correct me, of course), to make a normal Called Shot using a GM-fudged penalty (not the standard -4), and then… do 'Body+1' boxes of damage? Pre- or post-soak? How does the GM choose the penalty? And, most important by far, is it balanced? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Always the tricky part, it should obviously be easy enough to be worth investing in, and hard enough to be a tradeoff.

Jhaiisiin suggested involving bone-related bonuses, but I'll not that bone lacing has no rating, and the rules (just fluff?) suggests that any variety makes your bones all but unbreakable. What's the right way to account for that? My two cents is probably to just accept it and say 'can't be broken by any reasonable means'.


The penalty would depend on the circumstances. You hold a guy down and beat his arm with a baseball bat would have a much lower penalty than say a moving target while you swing the bat. I would avoid extra damage as the damage condition is supposed to represent how close you are to death. I can crush a guys feet and hands to cripple him, but he is much less likely to die than say having his arm cut off even though functionally he could fight better with 1 arm than crushed feet and hands. Just like when you learn joint locks and how to break elbows, knees, hands and dislocate shoulders. The idea is to make the person yield or remove their capacity to fight. Not necessarily kill them. This is why I recommended the call shot.
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Omenowl
post Jan 22 2011, 06:01 AM
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QUOTE (whatevs @ Jan 21 2011, 11:43 PM) *
Yeah, I was intentionally a little vague. You guys guessed it though (typical dumpshock awesomeness). I have a physad that im making, and i want to combine subduing combat (joint lock) + wildcat martial arts bonuses to call a shot + smashing blow + strebgth boost to break limbs (first thought: cyber or regular arm).

The way i figure it, if the desired affect is on paper somewhere it's easier to convince a gm to apply them.


SR4a Page 161 called shots.

When a shot is called, and pending the gamemaster’s agreement,
the player character has the choice to:

• Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character receives
a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better
armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor
is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.
• Target a vital area in order to increase damage. The attacking character
can choose to increase the DV of his attack by +1 to +4, but
receives an equivalent negative dice pool modifier to the attack.
So a character that opts to increase his attack by the maximum +4
DV suffers a –4 dice pool modifier on the attack.
• Knock something out of the target’s grasp. The attacking character
receives a –4 dice pool modifier on the attack. If the modified
Damage Value of the attack exceeds the target’s Strength, the target
loses his grip on the object. The gamemaster determines whether
or not the object is damaged and how far away it is knocked.
• The gamemaster may also allow other specific effects for called
shots if he chooses. For example, you could use called shots to
knock an opponent over a ledge, shoot out a tire, temporarily
blind an opponent, etc.


In this case you are using the last option that I bolded.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 22 2011, 06:04 AM
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Right. The basic Called Shot penalty is (again) -4, and I'd point out that breaking a bone is probably more extreme (and permanent) than the existing Called Shot option we're talking about.

Perhaps a situational bonus for special situations, although I'd simply say that you can do anything you want in a helpless/noncombat situation (whenever a coup de grace would be appropriate, for example). You certainly can't have extra damage from the action, because that's a different Called Shot. Perhaps it should even have a damage penalty, given that you're specifically trying to do less raw damage, in exchange for specific disablement.

Another concern is that this shouldn't beat similar existing rules (like nerve strike, etc.) unless it requires significantly more investment/tradeoff.

For the OP, the suggestion should also address the effects of Smashing Blow, I guess? I'm honestly not familiar with the specifics on that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Omenowl
post Jan 22 2011, 06:21 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 22 2011, 12:04 AM) *
Right. The basic Called Shot penalty is (again) -4, and I'd point out that breaking a bone is probably more extreme (and permanent) than the existing Called Shot option we're talking about.

Perhaps a situational bonus for special situations, although I'd simply say that you can do anything you want in a helpless/noncombat situation (whenever a coup de grace would be appropriate, for example). You certainly can't have extra damage from the action, because that's a different Called Shot. Perhaps it should even have a damage penalty, given that you're specifically trying to do less raw damage, in exchange for specific disablement.

Another concern is that this shouldn't beat similar existing rules (like nerve strike, etc.) unless it requires significantly more investment/tradeoff.

For the OP, the suggestion should also address the effects of Smashing Blow, I guess? I'm honestly not familiar with the specifics on that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


It is incorrect that it is -4 dice pool by default. All the chart specifically state it is variable as does the text. Even the extra damage is 1 die penalty for each extra point of damage with a maximum of -4 dice for +4DV. To bypass armor it is -1 die per armor point bypassed and to knock a item out of someone's hand is -4 dice. I do believe it should be treated like pain that give a dice penalty or some other effect. A guy with a broken knee is not going to run and will be slowed for movement. A guy with a broken hand will not be picking up an item with it. The important part is to talk to the GM and discuss everything before you play.
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Guest_whatevs_*
post Jan 22 2011, 06:23 AM
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Smashing blow - Street magic 179, dv x2 when using unarmed against a barrier or other static structure.
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Guest_whatevs_*
post Jan 22 2011, 06:31 AM
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QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 22 2011, 01:21 AM) *
It do believe it should be treated like pain that give a dice penalty or some other effect. A guy with a broken knee is not going to run and will be slowed for movement. A guy with a broken hand will not be picking up an item with it. The important part is to talk to the GM and discuss everything before you play.


Thats all i'm really looking for. I just want to make sure that ambushed security Guard wont try to pull a hold out pistol later (without going lethal). Although, i guess i could break a neck just as easily as an arm this way. I wonder jow common a 'cyber-neck' is. Lol
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Omenowl
post Jan 22 2011, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (whatevs @ Jan 22 2011, 12:31 AM) *
Thats all i'm really looking for. I just want to make sure that ambushed security Guard wont try to pull a hold out pistol later (without going lethal). Although, i guess i could break a neck just as easily as an arm this way. I wonder jow common a 'cyber-neck' is. Lol


Might as well take the pacifist flaw so you won't kill people. My recommendation is to go for nerve strike and chemistry. Knock the guard out and then tie his hands with a ziptie and move on.
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Guest_whatevs_*
post Jan 22 2011, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 22 2011, 10:53 AM) *
Might as well take the pacifist flaw so you won't kill people. My recommendation is to go for nerve strike and chemistry. Knock the guard out and then tie his hands with a ziptie and move on.


lol, didn't say I wasn't open to going lethal (at the right times). I like the nerve strike idea, especially that it works nicely on someone with a high body score. But there's just something more gritty about breaking an arm or leg. If I don't get any love from a gm about the breakage, I'll definitely go with Nerve Strike.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 22 2011, 06:19 PM
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There's no rules for barrier rating of tissue, sinew and bones either.
How much does it take to rip a cyber-limb from the body it is attached to?
How much does it take to rip a normallimb from the body it's attached to?
How much does it take to chop off a forearm with a given bladed weapon?
How much does ot take to break a finger?
How much does it take to tear off an ear or pull out teeth or or finger/toenails?
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