Creating an Infected/Vampire AA Mega.., Aka Vampire the Masquerade, Underworld, Twilight.. etc etc.. Options

[V-Origin]

Vampires and the Infected have been around since 2011..

How is it not possible that the more intelligent Infected aka the Vampires, Banshees and Nosferatu have not created a hidden empire of Infected/Vampires?

I mean,., humans are afraid of death, right? I would think that lots of humans would jump at the chance at immortality and become more beautiful in the process.. thus the number of vampires and vampire wannabe fans should be much higher than is written in the books right?

Of course, some of you may ask.. how is it possible that vampires can create a hidden empire of Infected/Vampires?

Well, just take a look at the history of the Camillara/Sabbath in Vampire the Masquerade.. or watch the Underworld and Twilight movies.. think about Gothic clubs where vampires and humans mix, think about maybe more than one vampire/infected mega-corporation in existence which are at odds with one another...

If the ghouls can create a kingdom, surely the vampires can do much better than that.. a vampire arcology for example sounds extremely cool...

Surely we can import the ideas of a hidden Vampire Kingdom/AA Mega into Shadowrun can't we?

But if you were to do this, how would you go about creating a long-term Vampire Kingdom campaign in SR?

Let's start the ball rolling and for my detractors, no this vampire AA mega are not owned by my toxics.. they are one of the main adversaries for my toxics.. thanks..

[V-Origin]

btw .. i was trying to come up with the ideal number of vampires in SR if I were to import the concept of vampire kingdoms from Masquerade into SR..

Came across this thread which states the RAW for vampire human ratio in Masquerade which is one vampire to every 50,000 humans..

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/p/27762/569203.aspx

so i divided 6 billion humans by 50,000 equates 120,000 vampires ..

since running wild quotes

Since
2011, HMHVV has Infected, worldwide, hundreds of thousands of
individuals from six sapient species; that number rises into the tens
of millions when you count ghouls

120,000 vampires seem just about right and might even be on the conservative side of the estimation..

yup, the idea of a vampire kingdom(s) sound extremely plausible...

[Fortinbras]

Well, there already is a ghoul kingdom in Africa and an Orc underground in Seattle, so I guess that's a neat story.
Write up the story or supplement, post it and let me know if you want notes or copy.

[Grinder]

You're putting a ghoul kingdom and the ork underground in Seattle into the same basket? Dude.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Mardrax]

You're putting a ghoul kingdom and the ork underground in Seattle into the same basket? Dude.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I'd drop humanis in there too. There's a ghoul kingdom, an ork underground, let caucasian humans have their own country too!

We situated a group of vampire diamond traders in Amsterdam. Gives 'blood diamond' a whole new definition.

The thing I see working against vampires ganging is the paranoid, misanthropic, insular mindset, that popular culture seems to attribute to them.

[Tiralee]

I've not read any 4th Ed books on it, but in the unfinished Shadows of Latin America fragments, isn't one of the resort islands in bed with the infected now? (Caribleague final draft?)

That's a great position - fluid population, no hint of traditional vampire haunts and a populace that's too opressed to do much about it apart from work quietly and get the hell out, if they can.

Of course the vamps would have to police their own, so, yes, it looks like a good sport to start, really.

...All you'd have to do is look for where all the glitter is being shipped, and firebomb accordingly.


-Tir.

[Sengir]

I would think that lots of humans would jump at the chance at immortality and become more beautiful in the process..

Please go back to reading Twilight...

[Tiralee]

Aha - Trinidad!

Any news on it in Shadows of <4th Ed?>? Sounded like a great place to meet up with Stalker as he owes us a favour for finding him a Weapon Foci when he needed it.

_Tir.

[Kyrel]

btw .. i was trying to come up with the ideal number of vampires in SR if I were to import the concept of vampire kingdoms from Masquerade into SR..

Came across this thread which states the RAW for vampire human ratio in Masquerade which is one vampire to every 50,000 humans..

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/p/27762/569203.aspx

so i divided 6 billion humans by 50,000 equates 120,000 vampires ..

since running wild quotes

Since
2011, HMHVV has Infected, worldwide, hundreds of thousands of
individuals from six sapient species; that number rises into the tens
of millions when you count ghouls

120,000 vampires seem just about right and might even be on the conservative side of the estimation..

yup, the idea of a vampire kingdom(s) sound extremely plausible...

1:50.000 yes and no. As the thread you link to also states, the "official" ratio for Camarilla cities are 1:100.000, but the Sabbat probably operate closer to the 1:50.000 stated. But then you also have to keep in mind that you won't find very many Kindred in the Far East, where the Kuei Jin holds sway, and while they might be a form of vampires, they certainly aren't Kindred. At the end of the day a lot of numbers have been kicked around on various VtM and WoD boards over the years, but I believe that the general consensus is that the global population of Kindred and Cainites (Camarilla and Sabbat vampires) are in the area of 100.000, so not too far from you calculated 120.000.

As for Vampires in SR, I have to say that they have one inherrent giant challenge to deal with, compared with VtM Kindred. They don't just need blood, which regenerates in a human within a few months, but they need Essence, which does not regenerate. Sure, they have some advantages to Kindred (like not outright frying sunlight), but they also have to deal with the fact that every single mage pretty much will be able to assence them, and determine what they are, or at least that they aren’t human. Also, to an extend they also have to deal with having a harder time concealing their nature, seeing as vampire, banshee, and especially nosferatu (as I recall at least) gain a number of physical traits, which sort of sets them apart. Sure, Kindred have to deal with some similar challenges as well, but they can expend blood/Vitae in order to flush their skin with warmth etc., and Nosferatu Kindred (and other Kindred with the Obfuscate or Chimestry discipline) are able to either hide themselves in plain sight, or make themselves appear as someone else, thus helping them hide their true nature.

Might it theoretically be possible for vampires to form a sort of “hidden kingdom” amongst humans, concealing themselves within society? In theory yes, and if you want it to be possible in your game, then it is certainly possible. But to be honest, I’m not certain that it’s really all that feasible to have happen in SR. There’s really just too much surveillance everywhere, and communication and dissemination of trid information is simply too fast and too easy, in order to be able to maintain something like a VtM style Masquerade.

That being said, however, I can certainly envision some minor or medium corps having one or more vampires on the board of directors, or in some other position, which would allow the vampire to stay out of the sun, and not have to associate too much with the employees.

[Aria]

I'm sure one of the Threats books talked about Vampires in league with the Hermetic Druids in England (and possible silliness with cyberzombies too!?!)

[PoliteMan]

The original Threats had an entry on Vampires controlling a secret society. There are three main problems that SR vamps have that Masquerade/Requiem vamps don't.

#1 The aforementioned reliance on Essence instead of blood. Victims can only regain essence through expensive gene therapy. Vamps can build sustainable societys, they must either import prey or move.

#2 The surveilance society. Quite frankly, Every Ork and Troll has thermo vision, along with a great many scanners, and all of them will spot something wrong with SR vamps. That's ignoring the multitude of problems that can arise with Matrix data, other scanners, medical testing, etc.

#3 The mystical pecking order. Vamps in other systems are usually either the nastiest things out there or have carved out a nitch for themselves with unique powers, usually manipulation. Vamps in Masquerade, for example, aren't the most powerful magical entities by far but they do have an impressive number of unique abilities which allow them to compete. SR vamps are dragon chow and have few advantages over Immortal Elves or even powerful "normal" spellcasters. They can be powerful but they have few/no unique powers and their overall power level isn't impressive compared with the challenges they face.

[V-Origin]

Please go back to reading Twilight...

VAMPIRE cha is N+2

[V-Origin]

How many of you guys have watched the Russian movies daywatch/nightwatch?

I am thinking of creating a campaign whereby the immortal blood elves are squaring off against the vampires/infected in a multi-decade inter-corp war..

The vampires shouldn't be as powerful politically and economically as shown in VtM.. otherwise they would be the ones ruling the world instead of the megas..

my point is .. both immortal elves and vampires should have power but not to the extent that they are the dominant players in the world.. sure we can make them players .. but definitely not major players..

no immortal elf or vampire mega should have more power than any of the AAAs at least.. the dragons will have struck them down first...

[V-Origin]

1:50.000 yes and no. As the thread you link to also states, the "official" ratio for Camarilla cities are 1:100.000, but the Sabbat probably operate closer to the 1:50.000 stated. But then you also have to keep in mind that you won't find very many Kindred in the Far East, where the Kuei Jin holds sway, and while they might be a form of vampires, they certainly aren't Kindred. At the end of the day a lot of numbers have been kicked around on various VtM and WoD boards over the years, but I believe that the general consensus is that the global population of Kindred and Cainites (Camarilla and Sabbat vampires) are in the area of 100.000, so not too far from you calculated 120.000.

As for Vampires in SR, I have to say that they have one inherrent giant challenge to deal with, compared with VtM Kindred. They don't just need blood, which regenerates in a human within a few months, but they need Essence, which does not regenerate. Sure, they have some advantages to Kindred (like not outright frying sunlight), but they also have to deal with the fact that every single mage pretty much will be able to assence them, and determine what they are, or at least that they aren’t human. Also, to an extend they also have to deal with having a harder time concealing their nature, seeing as vampire, banshee, and especially nosferatu (as I recall at least) gain a number of physical traits, which sort of sets them apart. Sure, Kindred have to deal with some similar challenges as well, but they can expend blood/Vitae in order to flush their skin with warmth etc., and Nosferatu Kindred (and other Kindred with the Obfuscate or Chimestry discipline) are able to either hide themselves in plain sight, or make themselves appear as someone else, thus helping them hide their true nature.

Might it theoretically be possible for vampires to form a sort of “hidden kingdom” amongst humans, concealing themselves within society? In theory yes, and if you want it to be possible in your game, then it is certainly possible. But to be honest, I’m not certain that it’s really all that feasible to have happen in SR. There’s really just too much surveillance everywhere, and communication and dissemination of trid information is simply too fast and too easy, in order to be able to maintain something like a VtM style Masquerade.

That being said, however, I can certainly envision some minor or medium corps having one or more vampires on the board of directors, or in some other position, which would allow the vampire to stay out of the sun, and not have to associate too much with the employees.

Illusion magic and hide aura metamagicks are definitely a must for any vampire corp i suppose..

[hermit]

Vampires and the Infected have been around since 2011..

Source?

How is it not possible that the more intelligent Infected aka the Vampires, Banshees and Nosferatu have not created a hidden empire of Infected/Vampires?

Oh, they did. It was called the Ordo Maximus. It has also been eliminated. By the other, more powerful, and not really vampire-loving entities of the 6th world.

I would think that lots of humans would jump at the chance at immortality and become more beautiful in the process.. thus the number of vampires and vampire wannabe fans should be much higher than is written in the books right?

Wrong. Because a vampire in SR isn't that much prettier (as mentioned, it's +2, putting them on even fotting with elves) and unlike elves, vampires are known as soul-eating, often depraved and dangerous monsters. Elves, though, DO have a very significant number of fans and wannabes, to the point that an archetype from the books actually is an elf poser.

Well, just take a look at the history of the Camillara/Sabbath in Vampire the Masquerade.. or watch the Underworld and Twilight movies.. think about Gothic clubs where vampires and humans mix, think about maybe more than one vampire/infected mega-corporation in existence which are at odds with one another...

Those also are worlds without dragons, elves, human (often megacorp or agency) magicans, trolls, dwarfs, and spirits who all take offense in Vampires' existence. It cannot be compared just because both is urban magic. That's like complaining the Imperium in 40K is too mean to aliens and wanting it to be more like the Star Wars Empire just because both have an emperor who doesn't look so alive and is a powerful psychic.

If the ghouls can create a kingdom, surely the vampires can do much better than that.. a vampire arcology for example sounds extremely cool...

It sounds extremly targetable. And with 14K Nuyen, it will sound extremly annihilated via thur shot.

But if you were to do this, how would you go about creating a long-term Vampire Kingdom campaign in SR?

--buy Threats 2
-- read the chapter on the Ordo Maximus
-- build vampire characters and play

How many of you guys have watched the Russian movies daywatch/nightwatch?

Read the books. It's pretty much an alternative setting vor MtA. shadowrun doesn't work that way, though I HAVE used Tiger Cup as a Yakut agent more than once. Tiger combat mage shifter.

I am thinking of creating a campaign whereby the immortal blood elves are squaring off against the vampires/infected in a multi-decade inter-corp war..

That's only possible if you massively power the elves down. They know things about magic Vampires couldn't even dream of knowing, and as the only awakened creature known can survive mana shallows.

Yopur idea that there is a vampire-operated/infiltrated corp have merit, though, and are clearly doable. I recommend one of the French corps, since France is among the nations stupid tolerant enough to have lifted the shoot on sight with extreme prejudice policy towards the soul suckers.

[V-Origin]

The source is Running Wild pg 57

Since
2011, HMHVV has Infected, worldwide, hundreds of thousands of
individuals from six sapient species; that number rises into the tens
of millions when you count ghouls

Ordo is just a small magical order.. I am talking about a vampire corp consisting of a hundred thousand vampires and their human mortal followers..

In VtM.. the general populace doesn't know much about vampires and it should stay that way in SR which will ensure that the particular vampire corp will not be targeted by the rest of the megas..

In Runner's companion, it states that

Vampires
(Homo sapiens sapiens vrykolakas)
Humans infected with a species of HMHVV I are one of
the most common forms of vampiric Infected. Aside from a
pale complexion and slightly prominent canines, they are nearly
identical to regular humans. The large body of myth and popular
culture surrounding vampires, combined with their impressive
paranormal powers, make them relatively popular—to would-be
Infected and hunters alike. Vampires are hemovores and cannot
hold down other food.

This shows that there is a movement of vampire followers in SR who want to become vampires.. now how big this movement is will be up to Gm's discretion... but obviously if you wanna run a vampire corp campaign,, the movement should be huge but subtle..

And if you wanna go to the extreme.. how about a vampire/infected toxic mage corp? hehehehe

[Mongoose]

Vampires in other genres also have one defining feature that SR vampires lack - a bond of blood. If varies from source to source, but in all cases it gives them a reason to form social ties with other vampires (either friendly or exploitative). Vampires in SR have no such ties; they do just as well (perhaps better) to work with various other allies as thier own kind, and (excluding normal bonds of family / friendship) have no reason to seek out other infected. In fact, the potential competition for resources gives them a reason to AVOID others of their kind. Like tigers, they are well suited to be lone predators, but even tigers have a reason to mate.

[hermit]

Ordo is just a small magical order.. I am talking about a vampire corp consisting of a hundred thousand vampires and their human mortal followers..

In VtM.. the general populace doesn't know much about vampires and it should stay that way in SR which will ensure that the particular vampire corp will not be targeted by the rest of the megas..

That is impossible to keep secret in SR. And since it isn't it's a free for all to attack and destroy. That just won't fly.

Besides, vampires are publically known. You can hardly masquerade that. Not that this masquerade would work, even if they were not well known, because merely by existing they'd step on every other (more powerful) hidden power's toes. The Masquerade might have worked in a world where Vampires are the largest and best organised otherworldly asset, it won't in a world where all the other behind-the-scenes groups are both more powerful than them and would likely be out for them on principle (competition, disgust, taking away their own followers, ect).

Besies, as Mongoose states, Vampires in SRT haven't got many incentives to form secret societies. They're loners by nature. I have as hard a time imagining a megacorp made up of ALL vampires and ALL their fans (especially keeping itself secret to boot, since megacorps need to generate revenue as I do with a mega made up of every serial killer on the planet and their fans.

Because really, serial killers is just what SR vampires are.

[V-Origin]

this is where the magical orders of vampires come into play .. geas and all that to keep vampires in line in return for power.. hehehehehe ..

how does immunity to sunlight sounds now? lol

a magical tradition of vampire mages/adepts plus possessing vampire spirits to give them powers .. that will surely be the backing of the first ever vampire corp.. heheheh...

[Stahlseele]

Want the easy way?
Cross Asamondo with Aztechnology.
??????
Profit!


Aztechnology crossed with Mexico. and basically bought out the complete state of Mexiko.
Then they renamed it to Aztlan. One State, one Corp. Under evil gods!

[Sengir]

How many of you guys have watched the Russian movies daywatch/nightwatch?

You should read the novels. Not just because the movies are competitors for the worst adaption ever, but also because they clear up a lot of things about the universe: Vampires and bestmen are considered as inferior species of the Others. The Night Watch despises them as parasitic animals, the Day Watch looks down upon them for their weakness and lack of control, and loves to use them for forlon hope assignments. Both kinds are forced to register wherever they live, bear a seal which allows any Watcher to instantly destroy offenders, and may only feed on humans with a "hunting permit". These permits are only issued for special occasions (like reaching maturity), otherwise blood bags will have to suffice. And when caught attacking humans without a permit, they are treated like rabid dogs - like I said, by both Dark and Light Others.

I am thinking of creating a campaign whereby the immortal blood elves are squaring off against the vampires/infected in a multi-decade inter-corp war..

Oh dear, an ancient blood feud between secret power players...you should invest some of your creativity into making storylines and not rule interpretations.

[KarmaInferno]

.. or watch the Underworld and Twilight movies..

OLDMAN! You are needed!



-k

[Sephiroth]

Vampires and the Infected have been around since 2011..

How is it not possible that the more intelligent Infected aka the Vampires, Banshees and Nosferatu have not created a hidden empire of Infected/Vampires?

I mean,., humans are afraid of death, right? I would think that lots of humans would jump at the chance at immortality and become more beautiful in the process.. thus the number of vampires and vampire wannabe fans should be much higher than is written in the books right?

Of course, some of you may ask.. how is it possible that vampires can create a hidden empire of Infected/Vampires?

Well, just take a look at the history of the Camillara/Sabbath in Vampire the Masquerade.. or watch the Underworld and Twilight movies.. think about Gothic clubs where vampires and humans mix, think about maybe more than one vampire/infected mega-corporation in existence which are at odds with one another...

If the ghouls can create a kingdom, surely the vampires can do much better than that.. a vampire arcology for example sounds extremely cool...

Surely we can import the ideas of a hidden Vampire Kingdom/AA Mega into Shadowrun can't we?

But if you were to do this, how would you go about creating a long-term Vampire Kingdom campaign in SR?

Let's start the ball rolling and for my detractors, no this vampire AA mega are not owned by my toxics.. they are one of the main adversaries for my toxics.. thanks..

As has been mentioned several times already, vampires and banshees are not the kind of Infected to do something like this. They're all just too inclined towards a loner lifestyle. If you REALLY want to to make a secret power player corp run and/or infiltrated by the Infected, you almost HAVE to use the batshit-crazy nosferatu instead - something like this is much more up their alley. And yes, you should go read Threats and Augmentation in the parts having to do with the Ordo Maximus. They may be a small order, but they obviously have quite a bit of influence and they are very ambitious.

Oh, they did. It was called the Ordo Maximus. It has also been eliminated. By the other, more powerful, and not really vampire-loving entities of the 6th world.

Since when? The Ordo was at least still around as of Augmentation. Several of the other nosferatu-led hermetic societies are gone now, yes, but I don't remember seeing anything about the breaking up of the Ordo Maximus in any recent books.

[hermit]

Not just because the movies are competitors for the worst adaption ever

Russian Light tube of star wars imitation! But yes, no disagreeing. It's pretty bad.

And when caught attacking humans without a permit, they are treated like rabid dogs - like I said, by both Dark and Light Others.

And if they look to change this they're the Big Evil of two novels and sumamrily destroyed.

Lots of goodness in there though. Really, read the novels.

how does immunity to sunlight sounds now? lol

Like something to be done with a level 1 spell and a spell lock. Not to mention that sunlight in SR hurts vampires but dows not (NOT) spontaneously combust them.

this is where the magical orders of vampires come into play .. geas and all that to keep vampires in line in return for power.. hehehehehe ..

(...)

a magical tradition of vampire mages/adepts plus possessing vampire spirits to give them powers .. that will surely be the backing of the first ever vampire corp.. heheheh...

Why should anyone sane join these orders again (as opposed to regular magical orders)? Because they're fellow vampires (remember, Vampires in sR are NOT social creatures like in WoD) who force them to take on Geas to control them? Right.

And now vampires get their own magical tradition? Well, if you want to play Vampire the Shadowing, fine, whatever floats your boat, but then this board really is not the place to look for ideas, inspiration or encouragement.

[Yerameyahu]

You might not be familiar with pattyhulez, but everyone in his world willingly joins magic groups that rob them of all free will. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)