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> Character Generation and cyberware, Clarification of some rules
Omenowl
post Jan 24 2011, 12:38 AM
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I have been reviewing character generation and have a couple of questions that I thought I knew:

The first is when you get an adept or magician and you get cyberware is the magic/resonance rating calculated before or after the inclusion of cyberware.

The question arises from this statement in the rules

Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not affect
other aspects of character creation—a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
Any reductions to a character’s Essence will also affect his Magic
or Resonance (see p. 177).


Does this mean the essense loss is a maximum attribute with the associated +25 for the highest attribute, or does it mean the player buys the magic/resonance attribute up and then as he adds essense it drops during character creation? I have been using the latter interpretation, but now I am not sure if I am applying it correctly.


The next question which comes into effect is the use of cyberware and essence loss. Are the multiplier reductions added or multiplied

For example:
Our runner has
A suite for 10% reduction
Alpha ware for 20% reduction
Biocompatibility 10% reduction
Adapsin is 10% reduction

Now if we multiply everything out we get 0.5832 and if we add the reductions we get 0.5 essence cost. For deltaware it is a bit more extreme with 0.3645 multiplied and 0.2 for added.

It gets even stranger when you include alphaware with secondhand because if you add then it has a cost of 1, but if you multiply then you get 0.96 essence loss.
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Mäx
post Jan 24 2011, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 24 2011, 02:38 AM) *
Does this mean the essense loss is a maximum attribute with the associated +25 for the highest attribute, or does it mean the player buys the magic/resonance attribute up and then as he adds essense it drops during character creation? I have been using the latter interpretation, but now I am not sure if I am applying it correctly.

You first buy up your magic and then the essence loss reduces it.
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 24 2011, 02:38 AM) *
The next question which comes into effect is the use of cyberware and essence loss. Are the multiplier reductions added or multiplied

For example:
Our runner has
A suite for 10% reduction
Alpha ware for 20% reduction
Biocompatibility 10% reduction
Adapsin is 10% reduction

Now if we multiply everything out we get 0.5832 and if we add the reductions we get 0.5 essence cost. For deltaware it is a bit more extreme with 0.3645 multiplied and 0.2 for added.

It gets even stranger when you include alphaware with secondhand because if you add then it has a cost of 1, but if you multiply then you get 0.96 essence loss.

By RAW its not really clear but the essence cost of the various suites in aug are calculated as a series of reductions, in this case its the essence cost*0,9*0,8*0,8*0,9 = the final essence cost.
Augmentation errata supposedly(according to multiple devs, including the former line developer) clarifies that your add up all the reductions together first(just like the reductions to initiation and submersion costs) and changes the suites cost to match that.
But sadly that errate is still unrealeased outside of germany (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Omenowl
post Jan 24 2011, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 23 2011, 06:51 PM) *
You first buy up your magic and then the essence loss reduces it.

By RAW its not really clear but the essence cost of the various suites in aug are calculated as a series of reductions, in this case its the essence cost*0,9*0,8*0,8*0,9 = the final essence cost.
Augmentation errata supposedly(according to multiple devs, including the former line developer) clarifies that your add up all the reductions together first(just like the reductions to initiation and submersion costs) and changes the suites cost to match that.
But sadly that errate is still unrealeased outside of germany (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)


Now that I multiply the suites they added the 0.1 reduction for suite and 0.2 for alphware to give a 0.7. So I tend to favor the addition.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 24 2011, 01:46 AM
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Of course, none of the existing suites are worth getting, so the question will never come up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Omenowl
post Jan 24 2011, 01:55 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 07:46 PM) *
Of course, none of the existing suites are worth getting, so the question will never come up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


The reason I ask if creating a wounded veteran the lost all 4 limbs, eyes, ears and needed a cybertorso and skull. It seems a fairly straight forward replacement that would be eligible for a cybersuite.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 24 2011, 02:14 AM
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It really doesn't, though. Suites are described as much more careful than just 'a lot of cyber together'. Also… he lost *everything*? Christ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Omenowl
post Jan 24 2011, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 08:14 PM) *
It really doesn't, though. Suites are described as much more careful than just 'a lot of cyber together'. Also… he lost *everything*? Christ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


You are right, but the text states

While the cyberware suites introduced below represent
only a sampling of the many available in the back-alleys, clinics,
and treatment rooms of the Sixth World, the gamemaster should
always keep in mind that cyberware suites—even those of highgrades—
are not designed to a runner’s needs, but are standardized
packages the cyberware manufacturer develops with a potential
consumer in mind, be they corporate employees or the customers
off the street.


In this case we are not including combat options, but rather someone who has severe trauma rather than a combat monster. So there should be a suite to represent this area.

I basically took two examples in combat where the character had an rpg go through the vehicle popping the eyes from their sockets and rupturing the eardrums due to the pressure change as the rpg sucked the air out. The guy crawled out of the apc, then a white phosphorous grenade exploded causing severe fire injury to arms, legs, body and head. Barely alive, but conscious he was flown to the hospital where doctors figured it would be faster to replace the parts rather trying to save the limbs and get him to rehabilitation. The character has modular cyberlimbs so the military grade stuff in a limb stayed in the armory and he could move relatively normally in civilian life. So when he left the military he simply took the non restricted or forbidden limbs.
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Fatum
post Jan 24 2011, 03:02 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 24 2011, 05:14 AM) *
It really doesn't, though. Suites are described as much more careful than just 'a lot of cyber together'. Also… he lost *everything*? Christ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Maybe he was a tank driver. Have you seen the injuries they end up with? It's like something that was once a human melted until there was barely a half left, sintered into a lump.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 24 2011, 03:05 AM
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Certainly, the rules say you can invent some. I'm just saying that a total body cyber + eyes + ears doesn't seem like a normal consumer market, by any stretch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's a part you didn't quote about how huge amounts of research and fiddling goes into optimization, etc., in order to eke out that 10%; thematically, it simply feels like a stretch.

Fatum, that's my point. If there's *that* much gone, it's amazing that there's *anything* left.
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Omenowl
post Jan 24 2011, 03:27 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 09:05 PM) *
Certainly, the rules say you can invent some. I'm just saying that a total body cyber + eyes + ears doesn't seem like a normal consumer market, by any stretch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's a part you didn't quote about how huge amounts of research and fiddling goes into optimization, etc., in order to eke out that 10%; thematically, it simply feels like a stretch.

Fatum, that's my point. If there's *that* much gone, it's amazing that there's *anything* left.


Lets see cybereyes, ears and skull makes sense. The fully body replacement makes sense if you want any enhancement over 3 for the limbs. So it seems the limbs and body work well together. The head, eyes and ears work well together. Not too much of a stretch to combine head with the torso.

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Yerameyahu
post Jan 24 2011, 03:35 AM
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I didn't say that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I said that it's an odd (and huge) collection of cyber, for a very small potential market.

For the record, though, I don't agree that skull + eyes + ears particularly makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Nor does a 5-limb set, really (just ask the optimizers, heh). I do agree that getting a 10% discount on Essence would be convenient for your character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ascalaphus
post Jan 24 2011, 03:36 AM
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Well, there's probably a Fire Victim suite. There'd be a market for it.

Just make sure so include some sort of orthoskin as a standard component; scar-tissue skin is pretty freakish, I'm sure victims want something more natural-looking.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 24 2011, 03:37 AM
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What skin? It's a 6-limb set. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

On a semi-serious note, can't they already replace the limbs and skin with real clonal bits in 2070? This kind of assumes that it's for someone who *wants* more than +3 to everything, which is exactly what they're *not* talking about with "are not designed to a runner’s needs, but are standardized packages the cyberware manufacturer develops with a potential consumer in mind". *shrug*.
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Whipstitch
post Jan 24 2011, 03:40 AM
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Yeah, I would think with a combination of cloned parts and gene therapy that you'd either be getting new, mundane bits or cyberlimbs if you're really and truly wrecked rather than extensive biomods. And for what little it's worth, standard Orthoskin isn't the same thing as a skin replacement either. It's actually placed underneath your surface layers of skin as opposed to the kind of grafting present in dermal plating. I do think some of the Augmentation upgrades for orthoskin do treat the upper layers though, like the shark skin, for example. Probably not worth thinking about too hard though-- it's not like this stuff is really a model of internal consistency.
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Critias
post Jan 24 2011, 03:57 AM
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If your GM's cool with it as a cyber suite, that's fine...but I just don't see many people losing both arms, both legs, their torso, their face, their eyes, and their ears, and still being alive to rebuild. How often is that going to happen, really, compared to the number of law enforcement SWAT guys out there, the number of office rat-race types eager for a logician suite, etc?

I mean, God knows a guy that wants that much chrome is gonna need every discount he can get in order to cram it into a character, and he still likely won't be the top-notch combat guy you'd think (since he's got so little Essence left for any reaction enhancers, for starters)...so if the GM's cool with it, obviously, knock yourself out. But it seems like kind of a stretch as a justification, is all. Just how "mass produced" would such a package be, really?
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Omenowl
post Jan 24 2011, 04:25 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 09:35 PM) *
I didn't say that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I said that it's an odd (and huge) collection of cyber, for a very small potential market.

For the record, though, I don't agree that skull + eyes + ears particularly makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Nor does a 5-limb set, really (just ask the optimizers, heh). I do agree that getting a 10% discount on Essence would be convenient for your character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


The real question is it a standardized package that makes sense? Replacing limbs, torso and head makes sense to integrate that into one. The eyes and ears are the two of the most common replacements by the general populace. There seem to be plenty of suites that include eyes and ears into them so adding this to a skull is not far feteched. This package does make sense for soldiers, warriors, guards, severe trauma and cyberfetishists. Nothing is restricted or forbidden which helps the sale. The modular limbs can be customized depending on the buyer, which helps sales.

Which leaves the real question is there enough of a market for this package? Does the research allow for less severe replacements such as torso and arms, or torso and legs so while the cost may be high initially it allows for a greater range of research for similar costs?
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 24 2011, 04:32 AM
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Well, again: yes and no. It *doesn't* make sense for "soldiers, warriors, guards", nor really severe trauma, either. That leaves cyberfetishists? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Eyes and ears *are* very common. Skulls are very, very *un*common. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Total replacements is even more so: it's expensive, inefficient, ineffective, and kinda insane… certainly fringe, anyway.
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Omenowl
post Jan 24 2011, 04:56 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 10:32 PM) *
Well, again: yes and no. It *doesn't* make sense for "soldiers, warriors, guards", nor really severe trauma, either. That leaves cyberfetishists? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Eyes and ears *are* very common. Skulls are very, very *un*common. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Total replacements is even more so: it's expensive, inefficient, ineffective, and kinda insane… certainly fringe, anyway.


If you were going to replace multiple limbs would you also get a cybertorso? If you were going to get enhancements over 3 would you get a cybertorso?

The skull is rare, as is a quadruple amputee. Still as a cyberskull is a shell wouldn't most people with a plate in their head have a possibility of a cyberskull instead? As per the rules which is faster to get back into action. Full limb regrowth or a cyberlimb replacement? A regrown limb takes 4 weeks plus healing time. A cyberlimb replacement takes healing time if you can buy it off the shelf. Modular cyberlimbs allow you to do exactly that. That other beauty is when they leave the service you simply give them a civilian grade limb (torso and skull being exceptions) with minimal hassle. The same cannot be said for reaction enhancers, wired reflexes, etc.

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Yerameyahu
post Jan 24 2011, 05:10 AM
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In order, my answers are: no, it's required, no, and limb?. But I don't understand the relevance of the questions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Is 'back in action' time a factor, and to whom? Very small militaries? I notice that you're focusing on a military 'market'; that's already a narrow market, and not exactly 'consumer'.

Why are you comparing cyberlimbs to wired reflexes?

For kicks, I'm going to throw out the non-RAW idea that, as a mere shell, there's basically nothing to optimize about skull/torso anyway. (Nothing but opinionated water-muddying, this, so feel free to ignore, hehe.)
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Critias
post Jan 24 2011, 05:17 AM
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Just out of curiosity, how often, exactly, do you think folks lose both arms, both legs, their spine, their face, their eyes, and their ears...but not die?
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 24 2011, 05:19 AM
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In the biz, that's an 'untapped niche market', duh! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Whipstitch
post Jan 24 2011, 05:22 AM
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QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 24 2011, 12:56 AM) *
If you were going to replace multiple limbs would you also get a cybertorso?


Only if I had unusual needs, although I guess you could argue that "unusual needs" is part of the "I want multiple cyberlimbs" package to begin with. Still, from a purely mechanical/practical point of view I must say that you don't really need a cybertorso to support good stats in cyberlimbs between customization and cyberlimb mods even if said mods are capped at "only" rating 3. So it's quite easy to meet or exceed the kind of stats most unaugmented humans are walking around with sans cybertorso. I guess you could make the argument that such a setup might be considered less strong than what a really burly augmented troll is used to, but well, they're trolls, and the feats they're capable of isn't really necessary for having a good quality of life either. So, yeah, the megacorps like to leave no market unturned, but currently trolls still face markups and the like to get a hold of gear that is "unusual," so I find it a bit unlikely that there's cyberlimb suite that was developed in part to cater to the needs of wounded trolls who miss being able to flip small vehicles for kicks.

Anyway, with that said, I could easily be talked into a two full cyberlegs suite, given that things like raptor legs and the like don't work at all if you don't have both lower limbs replaced, and I can easily imagine scenarios where you severely damage both legs at the same time. Developing legs to work as a matched set with a minimum of redundant stuff hits me as fairly sensible, in that case. Just don't expect to get optimized/customized legs with that bonus. I'd probably go so far as to allow modularity but that'd be it.
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Omenowl
post Jan 24 2011, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 11:10 PM) *
In order, my answers are: no, it's required, no, and limb?. But I don't understand the relevance of the questions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Is 'back in action' time a factor, and to whom? Very small militaries? I notice that you're focusing on a military 'market'; that's already a narrow market, and not exactly 'consumer'.

Why are you comparing cyberlimbs to wired reflexes?

For kicks, I'm going to throw out the non-RAW idea that, as a mere shell, there's basically nothing to optimize about skull/torso anyway. (Nothing but opinionated water-muddying, this, so feel free to ignore, hehe.)


Example robocop where the head and torso were shells. You still have internal organs, but they serve as connectors to the limbs so they don't rip your meat body apart. The skull and body still have sensors for touch and feel so optimizing is the difference between some feeling and a lot of feeling where there were once nerves.

Take the example of the Urban Kshatriya as having a similar or smaller market. The military, law enforcement, etc is a very large niche market, which is not narrow considering on average you have 1% of the total population in law enforcement, military, etc. Corporations and governments care about having the guy come back to work ASAP so they don't have to retrain a new guy.

Comparison was for licensing.

I never mentioned the loss of a spine. Loss of hearing and eyesight is fairly common in combat situations, fires or explosions. I know of one incident in Panama where an RPG flew through an APC sucking out the air causing the loss of sight and rupturing of ear drums without an explosion. Loss of quadruple limbs is rare, but they can definitely get torn to shreds along with the body and survive. You can also include damages from severe falls or crushing impacts. I know of one guy who was crushed by a falling concrete on a construction project. The caused all sort of issues with his limbs, head and body. He survived.

Why would one get a cybertorso because a starting character can start with a 3(7) attribute in body, strength and/or agility for their cyberlimbs fairly cheaply.

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Udoshi
post Jan 24 2011, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 23 2011, 08:27 PM) *
Lets see cybereyes, ears and skull makes sense. The fully body replacement makes sense if you want any enhancement over 3 for the limbs. So it seems the limbs and body work well together. The head, eyes and ears work well together. Not too much of a stretch to combine head with the torso.


I wouldthink that Skull/Eyes/Head would likely be one suite, probably with a commlink and datajack in theskull.
Torso and two Limbs would be another suite - since you need a torso to use >3 limb Enhancements, and arms come in pairs, it makes sense they'd be paired up in a matching suite.

Dunno about the legs.
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Mardrax
post Jan 24 2011, 07:02 AM
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Why do people keep bringing up > 3 limb enhancements while 3 is the average worldwide for metahumans? Doesn't that say anything higher is going to be a niche market? Trolls are too small a market share to even consider. Orks will be written off for the jobs they're doing if they need high strength, since they're bound to be low paying jobs, where no one's willing to foot the bill.

We're moving more and more to a Bioware prevalent world too. If they can afford it, burn victims will pretty much always opt for the skin graft. Initial cost may be a bit higher, but subsequent maintenance costs are nil. Plus it is, looks and feels more natural.

Plus, skull fractures where the working of the inner ear are damaged really aren't that common. Brain damage is a lot more common, but implants aren't fixing that.

A .3% global incidence rating isn't enough to type a common affliction.
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