Character Generation and cyberware, Clarification of some rules Options

[Udoshi]

Why do people keep bringing up > 3 limb enhancements while 3 is the average worldwide for metahumans? Doesn't that say anything higher is going to be a niche market?

Because rules for cyberlimbs and average human potential have nothing to do with each other.

Cyberlimbs -start- at rating 3. They easily go up to 6 with money, for cheap, and to 9 with enhancements.
With a cybertorso, a limb goes from 3 to 9 for under a thousand nuyen. (you HAVE to have a cybertorso to use rating 6 enhancements)

average kind of goes out the window when you start considering the ramifications of cheap, affordable augmentation.

[Saint Sithney]

So you're Universal Omnitech.

You make CYBER like whoa.

You make cyber arms.
You make cyber legs.
You make cyber torsos.
And you make cyber skulls.

But you don't make them work well together!
Oh, hell no! That would be ridiculous!

There's no market for cybertorsos that connect perfectly to the cyberlegs you designed! If someone has one of your cybertorsos there's absolutely no reason for them not to have their full compliment of normal limbs!
And there's no market for cyberskulls that are designed to work efficiently with your torsos either! What are the chances that someone had such severe trauma that they needed to get their entire skull replaced, AND they were injured on another part of their body? It sure sounds like a stand-alone unit to me!


Feh! Double feh!
Any torso-limb combination is pure suite.

Also cyberskulls should be able to use capacity slots for cybereyes and ears. It would make them less of a huge waste.

[Whipstitch]

Things work fine whether or not they're part of a suite, so that's a bit of a red herring. Fluff wise, a cyber suite is about eliminating redundancy and taking things form stand alone models to more streamlined versions that likely wouldn't even necessarily have full functionality when separated from the other parts. Meanwhile, cyberlimbs apparently come in all kinds of different models fitted for all sorts of different people and have all kinds of different modular attachments available. You can have a fraggin' hydraulic press hand, for god's sake. So I have some sympathy for the idea that there should be cyberlimb suites and such, but I don't think just any combination will qualify. With that said, I do think cyberlimb suites are less implausible than say, the explanation behind the cyberlogician series, and that thing is already canon.

Also, I find it your post kinda funny 'cuz I've got a few plates in my head and other than the head injury I didn't even get so much as a boo-boo in the crash.

[Mardrax]

Speaking from medical experience, severe skull trauma is indeed usually isolated, coupled with spinal trauma in most cases where it isn't. The latter isn't going to be fixed by cyber.

Also, keep in mind that a cyberskull replaces the skull. The bone. Those parts which have ossified. It's a shell. Doesn't hold anything in itself. Every organ inside the head is a completely separate system. I'd in fact be surprised if the lower jaw was replaced by default. Replacing more tissue always increases the risk of complication, after all. Implanting a mic into it, sure. Replacing the inner ear or the eyes? No. This costs youv extra essence, because it's more invasive.

And I'm not saying cyberlimbs+torso couldn't be a suite, in fact usual prosthetics we use use nowadays tend to replace the proximal end (torso side) of the joint as well. In case of cyber, it would only make sense to take the cyber a bit further than the first joint and replace the entire pelvic half/shoulder.
Torsos, however, are a completely different ballgame.
While indeed attribute enhancements are relatively cheap, you're missing the point that increased physical capacity is almost completely irrelevant to the well to do citizens of the 6th world, who do 99% of their work via matrix, or talking, and don't have to do so much as liftt a vaccuum cleaner in their daily lives.
The reason why stock cyberlimbs are made to attributes of 3 isn't because that's the average persons stats. It's because it all most people will ever need. On a sidenote, if the average person would need more, it would be reflected in the average person's attributes. Or those features of society would crumble.

And those underpaid lower classes who could benefit from those two points of extra strength? "Well I'm sorry sir, but there's a veritable army of SINless absolutely thrilled about the prospect of taking up your underpaid job. Your medical insurance will cover minimum treatment, and you'll be paid your wages during your recuperation time. After that, we're terribly sorry but we're going to have to let you go."

Medical insurance companies, which pay for most accident related treatment, have a bottom line to think of. If it'sv costing them more to fix you up than they'll benefit by doing so, they're going to find some reason to minimise or deny treatment. Minimise means stock treatment. Stock treament means limbs capped at 3. The term stock implies that anything other is custom, and hence a niche product.

Shadowrunners, military and elite security aren't a big market in any measure. And those are the only ones who are both interested in, and could afford to pay for the kind of stuff you're talking about.

[Mardrax]

Because rules for cyberlimbs and average human potential have nothing to do with each other.

Why yes. Yes they do. Average metahuman capacity (not potential) reflects the demands society imposes on the average metahuman. The stock capacity of any implement whatsoever reflects a function of the capacity the average user will expect of the implement, and affordability/attainability of the technology.
Expectations the average user will have of a in implement are also based on how commonplace the tech in question is, but mostly, to what use he'll be putting the implement.

Simple example: today's average computer user will not either a T1 internet line, or a 512 mb GPU. They need a line capable of browsing the internet with comfortable ammounts of waiting, where latency is often more important than bandwith, and a GPU that can render M$ Word files. So that's what most PC building companies deliver, and that's why other companies can place bulk orders for those. You can have your reasonably affordable previous gen 512 mb GPU, but it's still a niche product.

[Fatum]

Any torso-limb combination is pure suite.

Designing a cybersuite is a massive amount of work, so it only pays if the result is popular. When you have five limbs and a torso, each of a dozen models, there's quite a number of unique combinations you can arrange of those. Saying that a corp will make a suite out of each is borderline ridiculous. From the ridiculous side.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed. Let's recap: suites require a real market, and a *specific* preset combination of 'ware. That rules out 6-limb, 5-limb… it even rules out 2-leg + torso, because they could be literally 8 different kinds of legs. It also rules out skull + eyes + ears, because it's a cyberskull. 'Nuff said.

Unless, as the OP seems to, you wanted just boring (and suboptimal) modular legs. The least unplausible suggestion so far is torso + 2-modular-legs. Regardless, it's a far cry from that to 6-limb + eyes + ears.

Aside: more opinionated non-RAW theme questions. Why would modular legs need/support the torso's purpose (enhancements), and would modular limbs even be optimizable in the first place? Would you have to get your modules from the same company, possibly even in a single giant bundle?

[Omenowl]

Indeed. Let's recap: suites require a real market, and a *specific* preset combination of 'ware. That rules out 6-limb, 5-limb… it even rules out 2-leg + torso, because they could be literally 8 different kinds of legs. It also rules out skull + eyes + ears, because it's a cyberskull. 'Nuff said.

Unless, as the OP seems to, you wanted just boring (and suboptimal) modular legs. The least unplausible suggestion so far is torso + 2-modular-legs. Regardless, it's a far cry from that to 6-limb + eyes + ears.

Aside: more opinionated non-RAW theme questions. Why would modular legs need/support the torso's purpose (enhancements), and would modular limbs even be optimizable in the first place? Would you have to get your modules from the same company, possibly even in a single giant bundle?

8 different kinds of legs? You have orc, dwarf, troll, elf and human as the base. As alphaware is off the shelf so it means you can go to your local chop shop to get a cyberlimb/torso suite. You are bringing in the idea that having a legally available and commonly purchased limbs in no way interests any group into going mostly or heavily cyber. That seems to be a fallacy of logic. You have groups such as construction and military where strength, body, and agility are highly useful. Include armor that adds with body armor and in the case of your soldier you have a cheaply tough soldier in a faster time than you would have of getting an ideal physical specimen It also allows you to get by the usual physical exams if the applicant is willing to undergo limb replacement. You include modular cyberlimbs you expand your market where instead of the usual sale of a limb and the customer goes away, you can now interest them into accessories such as customized looks and different functionalities.

Our construction worker has numerous construction options. Armor to protect from fire, falling objects, etc. He has the torso, arms and legs. The head is a bit extreme, but he may also want to incorporate the eyes and ears as a package deal. Hydraulic jacks so he can jump down from a 3 story building (OSHA currently requires panelling to stop falls every 3 stories). He gets body and strength to carry more weight. Agility if he climbs regularly or does delicate work. Now our worker likes to weld he just fits a different hand with a laser weld. The job is over and he goes to break up some concrete. He replaces the limbs with jackhammers. Job is over and he uses the telescoping arms to stock shelves. Now if his employer provides the modular limbs than he simply retrieves his normal limbs at the end of the day to go home. He goes home and decides he wants to be at a rave. He puts on his slick raptor legs and his cyberlimb case mods.

Now does this mean the majority can afford this of course not, but from an advertising/word of mouth it gets people to look at your less expensive options such as the cybersuite torso+arms, or torso and legs, etc. Lets say you sell 500-1000 full cybersuites. You sell approximately several thousand body+ 4 limbs suites, and the even more torso +2 limb suites. You can recoup the expense of optimization research fairly quickly. You are doing about as well as most luxury brands of cars.

[Whipstitch]

It's your game, so you don't have to sell us on these ideas, really. But if you did want to sell me on the idea, I'd say you're going about it somewhat backwards. You don't have to sell me on why individual pieces of 'ware might be useful. You have to sell me on why the developers of said pieces of 'ware should start thinking of this 'ware as stuff that should be developed together as one system when they can already be doled out piecemeal and work fine. I mean, really, to me the strongest argument for a cyberlimb suite is that implanting several limbs is tough on the recipient's health--particularly if they already have implants-- and thus the labs might work on the idea simply so that the process is viable at all in the most extreme cases.

Anyway, I also have a tough time buying into the idea that the military would be all gung-ho about multi-cyberlimb installations as a general use augmentation when there's all sorts of alternatives available. For one thing, cyberpsychosis is a canon in-game phenomena, after all, and the military has a rough enough time filtering out head cases without installing cyberlimbs everywhere. Likewise, the exercises they do are as much about being mentally sharp and disciplined as they are about being fit. If they just wanted you to have killer abs they'd hire Jillian Michaels instead of making you run the Darby Queen again, so I'd expect them to put you through your paces whether or not they set you up with muscle replacements. This probably isn't the thread for that conversation though. "How much does the military like cyberware?" is a subject that's been beaten half to death in a number of threads here on dumpshock, and people have covered just about any stance you care to name on the topic.

[Mardrax]

Point A: I don't see much use for metahuman construction workers in the 6th world, except as cheap labour, which is what basically disposable, low social strata orcs are for. They come in droves, and complain little as the jobpool is small, with a high potential workforce. Beside that, most have a large ammount of children and a wife to feed. These poeople will not have the money to spend on frivolously buying a set of raptor legs, let a lone a casemod. In fact, these people will have barely enough money to spend on frivolously buying a soycaf.
For the same price as two cyberlimbs+torso, you can get a perfectly fine drone to do the job 24/7, come high wind or water, at 30 stories up, without a safety harness, without needing such silly things as salary paid, or this preposterous idea that's gotten into the heads of anyone with an education that they call job benefits. All you really need is to pay the worksite rigger an hour extra every month to keep maintenance up on the drones that maintain the drones.

Let's look at a pricetag here, everything standard grade and obvious:

[ Spoiler ]

2 Modular Cyberarms: 16500 base +
Rating 6 Str enhancement: 1500
Rating 6 Bod enancement: 1200
Buit in Utility kit: 1500
Jackhammer 5000
Welding laser 3000
Telescoping: 2500
=
31.500 each.
=
63.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

2 Cyberlegs: 15.000 base +
rating 6 Str enhancement: 1500
rating 6 Bod enhancement: 1200
Telescoping: 2500
=
22.200 each.
=
44.400 :nuyen

1 cybertorso: 20.000 base +
rating 6 Str enhancement: 1500
rating 6 Bod enhancement: 1200
=
22.700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

The total bring us up to 130.100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Also, we're at 0.5 essence,

Day Job Quality tells us 40 hours of work weekly is worth 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month, but this isn't assuming the enerally underpaid status most construction workers have. Assuming the company proceeds to take a monthly cut of of 10% out of the worker's (ridiculously large) paycheck, we're talking 21.6 years to earn that investment back. Assuming a 5% annual RoI brings that down a bit.The average orc wil be venerable by the time they hit 50.
How many companies would think this a workable idea? To how many people would it apply?
How many specialised drones could one acquire with that kind if money? Would this be more profitable?
Would the decision to acquire this for a multitude of employees be good for the bottom line at all? Would smaller corps even have the investment room to buy more than one or two?
If a whole lot of companies don't answer very positive answers to the above, having a suite developped is off.

Military personel have very little use for enhanced attributes or any of the various cyberlimb modifications. The bulk of military personel are infantrymen, who will have have most of their gear carried by vehicles, or drones specially built for the purpose, like we're seeing in use today in increasing ammounts. Only special forces would benefit some, but those are few and far between, and will have little expenses spared for gear. Still though, plastic weaponry and caseless ammo take down gear weight a lot. Cyberlimbs would be a liability more than anything else as well, especially for those who spend long enough in the field to have to forego regular checkups. You can fix tired muscles, you can't fix an overexerted servo.

Also, ad nauseam, Luxury = niche != suite.

Of course, it's your game. Just know that it makes very little sense to allow from an economical standpoint. If you want to go for a bit more high powered game though, go right ahead.

[Omenowl]

It's your game, so you don't have to sell us on these ideas, really. But if you did want to sell me on the idea, I'd say you're going about it somewhat backwards. You don't have to sell me on why individual pieces of 'ware might be useful. You have to sell me on why the developers of said pieces of 'ware should start thinking of this 'ware as stuff that should be developed together as one system when they can already be doled out piecemeal and work fine. I mean, really, to me the strongest argument for a cyberlimb suite is that implanting several limbs is tough on the recipient's health--particularly if they already have implants-- and thus the labs might work on the idea simply so that the process is viable at all in the most extreme cases.

Anyway, I also have a tough time buying into the idea that the military would be all gung-ho about multi-cyberlimb installations as a general use augmentation when there's all sorts of alternatives available. For one thing, cyberpsychosis is a canon in-game phenomena, after all, and the military has a rough enough time filtering out head cases without installing cyberlimbs everywhere. Likewise, the exercises they do are as much about being mentally sharp and disciplined as they are about being fit. If they just wanted you to have killer abs they'd hire Jillian Michaels instead of making you run the Darby Queen again, so I'd expect them to put you through your paces whether or not they set you up with muscle replacements. This probably isn't the thread for that conversation though. "How much does the military like cyberware?" is a subject that's been beaten half to death in a number of threads here on dumpshock, and people have covered just about any stance you care to name on the topic.

I think the problem is people assume the military forces you to take cyberware. The reality is people probably join with the understanding that their enlistment will allow them to get cyberware. That might be part of your reenlistment bonus. As for traumatic injury they will probably do multilimb replacement and a cybertorso addition is not unreasonable. If you had expressed a desire for cyberware before then they may reward a heroic action with full replacement. We also cannot assume "1st world militaries" are always what we mean when we say military. Warlords and gangster may get them for the shear intimidation factor or to terror squads. Would I expect special forces to get a full replacement I don't think so. I do think that your frontline sergeant or captain may get them due to heavy scars and wounds over the years. Heavy military armor, a high body, high agility and high strength makes this a frightening frontline force. Much like when one reads starship troopers and the recruiter has no arms or legs. When he leaves the office he puts them on. Special forces would favor bioware and higher grades so they can blend into the populace and assensing has less affect.

You are right if you are going for a full replacement it has to be alphaware and a suite makes the most sense so they can add more ware. At the end of the day Corps want to make a profit and by the ability to sell more ware the greater their profit. Modular cyberlimbs fit into that bill as it is not invasive, but it definitely allows you to have repeat customers. The limbs can be fashion accessories. Lower essense cost means they can sell you extra ware and the addition of capacity pads their profits even more. Now if you include maintenance costs (1% per month) then the more you are able to add for perpetual profits. Again you don't have to sell everything, but if you sell a few hundred a year of full replacement, and then several partial replacements you make up for your research cost.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not sure why you keep ignoring the idea that military cyberware is things like Wires, not limbs. If they wanted a drone, they'd just get a drone, not cut off all of a man's limbs, or wait for random chance to do it for them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The fact is that 5-limb sets are vanishingly rare, and 6-limbs are even more so. A *small* factor in that is the huge Essence cost, which 10% doesn't really alter.

In Starship Troopers, he didn't have the option of clonal limbs.

I think you're vastly underestimating the cost of suite development, which presumably only increases as you add more bits.

You're arguing that modular limbs are good, not that a suite with them is good. Modular limbs already exist, addressing all your benefits.

Let me also echo Whipstich: you can do anything you want in your game, and I'm not saying you're crazy or anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm just arguing that, to my best understanding of the setting, your rationalizations don't jive for me.

[Whipstitch]

I don't think modular cyberlimbs are even all that good, to be honest. A jackhammer hand doesn't have many (hell, if any) advantages over just having a jackhammer around that I can think of. Meanwhile, I use my hands pretty often. I mean, if the attachments popped out of hammer space, that'd be one thing, but they don't. As long as that is the case I'd rather have some kind of fix it drone around with its own expert system. Worst case scenario they can hand you a spanner without requiring major surgery or getting in the way of unbuttoning your fly. Actually, there's another idea I like better than modular cyberlimbs: Smart Zippers.

[Omenowl]

Point A: I don't see much use for metahuman construction workers in the 6th world, except as cheap labour, which is what basically disposable, low social strata orcs are for. They come in droves, and complain little as the jobpool is small, with a high potential workforce. Beside that, most have a large ammount of children and a wife to feed. These poeople will not have the money to spend on frivolously buying a set of raptor legs, let a lone a casemod. In fact, these people will have barely enough money to spend on frivolously buying a soycaf.
For the same price as two cyberlimbs+torso, you can get a perfectly fine drone to do the job 24/7, come high wind or water, at 30 stories up, without a safety harness, without needing such silly things as salary paid, or this preposterous idea that's gotten into the heads of anyone with an education that they call job benefits. All you really need is to pay the worksite rigger an hour extra every month to keep maintenance up on the drones that maintain the drones.

Let's look at a pricetag here, everything standard grade and obvious:

[ Spoiler ]

2 Modular Cyberarms: 16500 base +
Rating 6 Str enhancement: 1500
Rating 6 Bod enancement: 1200
Buit in Utility kit: 1500
Jackhammer 5000
Welding laser 3000
Telescoping: 2500
=
31.500 each.
=
63.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

2 Cyberlegs: 15.000 base +
rating 6 Str enhancement: 1500
rating 6 Bod enhancement: 1200
Telescoping: 2500
=
22.200 each.
=
44.400 :nuyen

1 cybertorso: 20.000 base +
rating 6 Str enhancement: 1500
rating 6 Bod enhancement: 1200
=
22.700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

The total bring us up to 130.100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Also, we're at 0.5 essence,

Day Job Quality tells us 40 hours of work weekly is worth 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month, but this isn't assuming the enerally underpaid status most construction workers have. Assuming the company proceeds to take a monthly cut of of 10% out of the worker's (ridiculously large) paycheck, we're talking 21.6 years to earn that investment back. Assuming a 5% annual RoI brings that down a bit.The average orc wil be venerable by the time they hit 50.
How many companies would think this a workable idea? To how many people would it apply?
How many specialised drones could one acquire with that kind if money? Would this be more profitable?
Would the decision to acquire this for a multitude of employees be good for the bottom line at all? Would smaller corps even have the investment room to buy more than one or two?
If a whole lot of companies don't answer very positive answers to the above, having a suite developped is off.

Military personel have very little use for enhanced attributes or any of the various cyberlimb modifications. The bulk of military personel are infantrymen, who will have have most of their gear carried by vehicles, or drones specially built for the purpose, like we're seeing in use today in increasing ammounts. Only special forces would benefit some, but those are few and far between, and will have little expenses spared for gear. Still though, plastic weaponry and caseless ammo take down gear weight a lot. Cyberlimbs would be a liability more than anything else as well, especially for those who spend long enough in the field to have to forego regular checkups. You can fix tired muscles, you can't fix an overexerted servo.

Also, ad nauseam, Luxury = niche != suite.

Of course, it's your game. Just know that it makes very little sense to allow from an economical standpoint. If you want to go for a bit more high powered game though, go right ahead.

Truthfully most of the jobs can be replaced by drones. This can be soldiers to sales people.

The ability to increase armor, agility, strength and body is quite useful. Include this with the military armors and it makes sense for the military to explore the idea. If you are a warlord it is an excellent way to form terror squads and prevent mutinies if your elite require monthly maintenance else their ware shuts down. Again if you assume 1000 people on the planet get the suites then you are turning a profit very quickly for this much ware and building a market. If it works for brandname and gets people to buy suites from you then it is an advertising boon.

You seem to confuse construction workers from laborers. One is skilled and the other is not. Been on both sides and it is easy to tell the difference in respect given and pay.

[Yerameyahu]

Again back at ya, it's unreasonable to assume selling a thousand units would return a profit, and I just still can't believe that any amount of advertising will encourage 6-limb replacement in an age where cyber's 'brand' is declining, and drones are vastly cheaper. Prevent a mutiny by having your terror squad made of obedient robots, controlled by a handful of riggers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ditto for those skilled construction workers.

[Whipstitch]

Agreed, you can't just assume 1,000 customers justifies the costs. Suites aren't new products, rather they're generally collections of already popular products bundled together and the corps actually charge less for them. Which is kinda weird considering that alphaware straight up costs you double for having a lower essence cost, something that frankly only matters to samurai and the awakened anyway and not Joe Blow on the streets. With suites they're presumably saving money on some parts or something in much the same way component manufacturers can save money with combo boards, but frankly that's just conjecture. It's pretend economics of scale in a pretend game in the pretend future. We just can't know. Not with what little information we have, at any rate.

[Omenowl]

I'm not sure why you keep ignoring the idea that military cyberware is things like Wires, not limbs. If they wanted a drone, they'd just get a drone, not cut off all of a man's limbs, or wait for random chance to do it for them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The fact is that 5-limb sets are vanishingly rare, and 6-limbs are even more so. A *small* factor in that is the huge Essence cost, which 10% doesn't really alter.

In Starship Troopers, he didn't have the option of clonal limbs.

I think you're vastly underestimating the cost of suite development, which presumably only increases as you add more bits.

You're arguing that modular limbs are good, not that a suite with them is good. Modular limbs already exist, addressing all your benefits.

Let me also echo Whipstich: you can do anything you want in your game, and I'm not saying you're crazy or anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm just arguing that, to my best understanding of the setting, your rationalizations don't jive for me.

I have not argued the point, but you have never addressed the profit aspect. Lets say you make 25% off each suite. Lets say suite investment is 200 million nuyen. How many can you expect to sell per year? Now lets say you only sell a few per year does that research into full cyberlimb replacement translate into partial replacement suites? So you sell a 500 five or six body part replacements per year. Profit about 40k per replacement. 20 Million per year of major replacement. Now how many 2, 3, 4 limb replacements are you making that benefitted from similar research? Several thousand. Again now you are making 5000-20000 per sale. So we are well over the 50-60 million Nuyen per year. Then lets include having modular cyberlimbs as the suite. These are assumed to be part of the suite and are paid during the install. You are not paying extra essence or trying to redo the entire limb as it already has the universal connector at the lower joint. You do not replace the whole arm in the suite, but you can swap out your hand and forearm as you please with no impact on the suite. You are however opening up the market to sell more lower limbs vastly increasing your profitability and sales. So you make a profit after 3-5 years. I view that as a good investment.

Now this assumes you have no competition. If there is competition then it cuts into profit margins, etc. Then again if there is competition for cyberlimb suites than you have invalidated your whole argument of why corporations would not produce it.

[Yerameyahu]

I do see what you're saying, but it still rings wrong to me. :/

I'm not going to even speculate at real numbers, because I'm in no way qualified. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the cyberlimb market is both well-established and in direct competition (even within the same company) with a new suite, and that essentially no one wants 6-limb sets. I also believe that the profit margins are *much* smaller than 25% in what's practically a commodity market, and that suite development is a truly huge investment. I'm not even going to speculate at running costs of advertising, training, wages, etc. etc., that are subtracted before anything ever becomes 'profit'.

I don't think you can assume that you're developing 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-, *and* 6-limb suites at once. A suite is a suite; maybe you have 2 nearly-identical versions, and then maybe an alphaware version for each of those.

Further, I'm pretty sure you're in shaky rules territory to be swapping modular bits from a finely-tuned suite, unless they're *all* finely-tuned suite bits… which brings us back to my '8 kinds of limbs' point (admittedly low-balling it, of course). I've already mentioned that it sounds pretty fishy to even combine the concepts of 'finely-tuned suite' with 'modular limbs' in the first place, right?

[Omenowl]

I do see what you're saying, but it still rings wrong to me. :/

I'm not going to even speculate at real numbers, because I'm in no way qualified. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the cyberlimb market is both well-established and in direct competition (even within the same company) with a new suite, and that essentially no one wants 6-limb sets. I also believe that the profit margins are *much* smaller than 25% in what's practically a commodity market, and that suite development is a truly huge investment. I'm not even going to speculate at running costs of advertising, training, wages, etc. etc., that are subtracted before anything ever becomes 'profit'.

I don't think you can assume that you're developing 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-, *and* 6-limb suites at once. A suite is a suite; maybe you have 2 nearly-identical versions, and then maybe an alphaware version for each of those.

Further, I'm pretty sure you're in shaky rules territory to be swapping modular bits from a finely-tuned suite, unless they're *all* finely-tuned suite bits… which brings us back to my '8 kinds of limbs' point (admittedly low-balling it, of course). I've already mentioned that it sounds pretty fishy to even combine the concepts of 'finely-tuned suite' with 'modular limbs' in the first place, right?

You payed for the limb in the suite. I think you are arguing the point that buying an modular arm costs essence and then swapping with a different hand would cost more essence. That doesn't sound right either. I do think though the limbs/attachments would cost full price rather than discounted, but that is purely subjective. I do agree though that the grades would have to be identical so you can't cheap out.

And you are right in a commoditized market profit margins are lower, but suites are not commoditized unless you concede the point that is where everyone is fighting for major limb replacement suites market. You are also saying that research at a high level would not translate to research at a low level. There maybe some extra cost associated with lesser replacement, but nowhere as much as the initial cost for a full replacement. You are probably looking at a percentage of 5-10% per suite. We are still in the profitability range of 4-6 years. If you are heavily invested in cyberware then suites are a way to maintain market share over bioware due to the cheaper cost and you expanded ware that can be installed.

[Yerameyahu]

That's my point, though: the fluff of how suites work doesn't really jive with modularity, to me. I'm *not* arguing that it costs more Essence later, but that it maybe shouldn't work in the first place.

I'm saying that a suite of cyberlimbs competes directly against non-suites of cyberlimbs; it's not a separate or new market.

As far as I understand suite development, you *can't* make a suite of 12 things, and assume that you'll get any special benefit for any combination of fewer than those 12 things. The suite is a suite. I agree that it would greatly alter the picture if that *weren't* true, but AFAIK it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Now, granted that the rules are not as complete or clear as we would like. After all, what happens when you remove part of a suite? Nothing like you'd expect if the suite really were a single unit, even though the fluff implies that's how it gets the 10% discount. Bleh. Anyway, that's what this whole discussion is about: fluff mismatch. RAW, suites work fine with basically anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I also agree with Whipstitch that it never made sense for a suite to also cost less, or even the same, as non-discounted 'ware… unless the rules *did* impose tradeoffs, such as 'all one unit' (like program suites), etc.

Just for kicks, here's another wild factor: money invested in optimizing a 'dying' tech (cyberlimbs) for possible minor profit is money *not* invested in geneware, bio, nano, etc. Opportunity cost is vicious.

[Mardrax]

OYou're arguing 25% profit margin? For the producer of a product? Not the distributor, wholesaler or installer. The producer. You do realise that if anything would even approach that, Johnsons would be sending out runners in droves. The R&D department would be out of staff and data soon.

You do also realise that an alphaware 6 limb suite would be tantamount to buying a low end Ferrarri, or in game terms, two and a half WW3Ks. Would the military go through that ammount of money to reward someone? Would a gang or warlord even have the money to invest in one, let alone a squad? You do realise that for a mere 15% of the cost, you'd have a suit of heavy milspec full body armor. And even that still is 6 times the complete monthly salary of a middle lifestyle wageslave. A military would have this money to spend. Perhaps. A construction company? Don't think so. If those are going to be cybering employees, it'll be skillwires. Unless someone would be willing to go for the sheer awesome of pirate style jackhammer peg legs. Fantasy realism makes way for pink mohawk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Also, any labour that doesn't require adaptibility in mobility, functionality and decision making can be left up to drones. Military personel is excluded there, for a large part. Construction personel most assuredly isn't. Ditto for dockworkers and the like. That's why he former would be treated with a modicum of respect and care, and the latter only as long as they're more cost effective than drones.

[Sengir]

By RAW its not really clear but the essence cost of the various suites in aug are calculated as a series of reductions, in this case its the essence cost*0,9*0,8*0,8*0,9 = the final essence cost.
Augmentation errata supposedly(according to multiple devs, including the former line developer) clarifies that your add up all the reductions together first(just like the reductions to initiation and submersion costs) and changes the suites cost to match that.
But sadly that errate is still unrealeased outside of germany (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Not quite. The German Bodytech (aka Augmentation, how I hate those English-to-English "translations") says that the Essence cost modifier for suites should be added, everything else (including the cost modifier for suites) is still multiplied.
And frankly, using correct math all the time except in one special instance makes absolutely no sense, so just use correct math all the way. Getting another 50% off during a half-price sale does not mean you get something for free.

[Mäx]

And frankly, using correct math all the time except in one special instance makes absolutely no sense, so just use correct math all the way.

Well thats not really the case here, as my post said the 2 % discounts we're given rules for handling(initiation and submersion) both tell you to add the 10% discounts together for a 20% discount.

[Sengir]

Well thats not really the case here, as my post said the 2 % discounts we're given rules for handling(initiation and submersion) both tell you to add the 10% discounts together for a 20% discount.

OK, so there are two parts where math fails...

[Saint Sithney]

Designing a cybersuite is a massive amount of work, so it only pays if the result is popular. When you have five limbs and a torso, each of a dozen models, there's quite a number of unique combinations you can arrange of those. Saying that a corp will make a suite out of each is borderline ridiculous. From the ridiculous side.

You're Apple.

You make hardware and you want people to use your specific hardware.
How do you encourage customers to buy your hardware specifically?

You make sure that your hardware works together effeicently and automatically.
If you don't then that's a potential sale lost to the competition.

It's not particularly difficult to craft a leg or arm joint to fit into your cybertorso rather than just attacking to the bone.
The level of customization hardly requires more than a slight consideration during development. It's not like it needs to be completely redesigned.

For the sake of argument, look at the example suites. A bunch of slightly related parts made by different manufacturers. How is that "designed from the ground up to eliminate redundancies?" It's more like some chopshop decided to make a package deal for people who like crappy ware.