Destroy [Free Spirit] spell in Digital Grimoire, ... why? Options

[pbangarth]

The Destroy [Free Spirit] spell, on page 16 of Digital Grimoire, looks to be a waste of time, as it does what a Manabolt does, for only marginally less Drain, but for exactly one creature in all of creation and for a whole crapload of extra work to get it. Unless...

... it actually does destroy the Free Spirit instead of just disrupting it, given that it incorporates the Free Spirit's spirit formula, thus obviating the necessity of following it to its own metaplane to kill it for good.

Thoughts?

[Mardrax]

Does it seem too good to be true? Then the answer is most likely no.

[SpellBinder]

Considering the description says it's for a specific free spirit and not free spirits in general, I'd think that it would outright destroy said free spirit if you wholly filled it's condition modifier by this spell and this spell alone.

Of course, it's probably gonna be GM's discretion if the spell would truly work this way. Personally I don't know that many magician players who'd waste their time, money, and karma for such a one-off spell; one in particular would say "frag this drek of a spell" and just stick with regular manabolts instead.

[Makki]

it's an NPC spell. I imagine a poor outcased community with a old lady street shaman who most of the time is the villages healer. they've been harrassed by a Wild F10 Spirit for the last two years. now they need to put it to an end. he's danger and her drain stats are only average, so she gets going and writes that spell formula.
Now she might be able to disrupt him and every time he comes back in the future.
awesome spell

[Yerameyahu]

Non-optimal options are still options.

[Stahlseele]

Doesn't the Manablt simple send the spirit back to it's metaplane for some time?
And does the Destroy Spell maybe really get rid of the spirit for good?

[pbangarth]

That's what I would like to know. Yes, it is a non-optimal spell, but for my Free Spirit PC in my home game, it actually could be a spell of choice.

She has just made herself an enemy of a Free Spirit running a criminal operation in Las Vegas. She beat the 'Madam' in a magical showdown at a bordello where many metahumans are held magically, sending the Spirit to its home metaplane for some number of days. It has turned into an ongoing grudge match. My girl, Bryneir, wants to free the sex slaves but doesn't have the mojo to dispell a bunch of Quickened spells containing them. And this could all be done over again, anyway.

By great good fortune, Bryneir learned the True Name of the Madam, and so has the first crucial step in the process to do the Destroy [Madam] spell. It would be good to know if this spell will do the trick, or whether it is necessary to go to the Madam's metaplane to finish her off. That would be an epic run.

Once I get a cross-section of opinions here, I will talk to the GM.

[Cheops]

Since you need the spirit's formula/true name I'd say that you kill it forever and ever.

[Seth]

it's an NPC spell. I imagine a poor outcased community with a old lady street shaman who most of the time is the villages healer. they've been harrassed by a Wild F10 Spirit for the last two years. now they need to put it to an end.

I think you are right. Its also an example of similar spells: perhaps "Destroy Ghostwalker..." or something similar.

[Stahlseele]

There's SLAY DRAGON or KILL DRAGON O.o

[Udoshi]

Since you need the spirit's formula/true name I'd say that you kill it forever and ever.

THIS is the reason it exists. This is the reason its good.

If you have the spirit's formula, you can do so much crazy-batshit to a spirit.
You can force them to stop whatever they are doing, and come to you. At will. No drain. And you don't even have to be awakened to do it, much less have binding. (sm 108)
You can also bind free spirits at no drain. Yes, no drain. Specifically so. Its also worth noting that ANYONE can prepare the ritual to bind a spirit(arcana+logic, threshold 1), but then you need someone with binding to actually perform it. (like a mage-for-hire)

Since free spirits are automagically(literally) aware of all copies of their formula, and should be incredibly afraid of someone who has it.


Destroy Free Spirit isn't there to go 'lol, stunbolt is better'.
Its to go 'i'm tired of your shit. Come here, right now. Okay, now you're bound. Show me your home metaplane, then do nothing but twiddle your thumbs until your services run out. Sweet, we're here. BOOM, you're dead, permanently. Suck it.' or 'thats what i'm GOING to do to you if you mess with me again. BEHAVE.'

I'm fairly sure there are other interesting shenanigans to be done with a free spirits formula, but being able to compel and control them, and having that built into the spell itself is a big one.

Edit: Oh yeah. I'm fairly sure you can use astral tracking to find that free spirit anywhere, by using its formula. It would also make a great sympathetic link for ritual magic.

pbangarth: Thats pretty awesome, actually. I'd heartily endorse creating a Destroy Madam spell - pick up street magic and start looking for uses of a spirits true name/formula. There's plenty of other useful/annoying things you can do with it - just be careful it doesn't happen back to your spirit character!

[Charon]

Destroy Free Spirit isn't there to go 'lol, stunbolt is better'.
Its to go 'i'm tired of your shit. Come here, right now. Okay, now you're bound. Show me your home metaplane, then do nothing but twiddle your thumbs until your services run out. Sweet, we're here. BOOM, you're dead, permanently. Suck it.' or 'thats what i'm GOING to do to you if you mess with me again. BEHAVE.'

I think it's more of the later. You want to hold the spell over a spirit's head. If you are already hostile, you disrupt it then do the metaplane quest and kill it, right? No need to waste good karma to learn a spell and then kill it. But if you want to strongarm a free spirit... That's the kind of spell the free spirit's boss would know.

[Yerameyahu]

*Does* the spell actually do this, though (destroy forever)? That is, does the book say so?

Otherwise, we're talking about a (perfectly reasonable) house rule, and I'd just like to keep things straight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

*Does* the spell actually do this, though (destroy forever)? That is, does the book say so?

Otherwise, we're talking about a (perfectly reasonable) house rule, and I'd just like to keep things straight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This variation of Slay (p165 sm) is designed to target a specificfree spirit; different versions of this spell could exist for every free spirit. The target of each spell is designated by the spell formula, which must incorporate the target's spirit formula.This spell has no effect on any other spirit, even one of the same type as the free spirit. The spell formula counts as a copy of the spirit formula for all purposes
Type: M. Range: LOS. Damage: P. Duration: I. DV: F/2-2

Bolding by me. that bit is important, and has a lot of rules implications.

Slay Free Spirit does not permakill regular spirits. However, its a mana spell, which means you can cast it in the spirits home plane just fine.
What you COULD do is Slay the spirit in the real/astral world, then ritual magic a slay at it while its banished/trapped in its metaplane. Problem solved.
I may have also missed a use of the spirit formula to harm a spirit - you really have to hunt for uses of it, since there's no real list, and i don't want to comb through DG, SM and RW looking for scrap sentences.


However, yeah, its a fairly reasonable house rule.

[pbangarth]

There's the rub, eh? Does this spell kill permanently even here in the physical plane? If it doesn't, then there is no point to learn a different spell, as any P damage spell will kill on the target Free Spirit's metaplane. (Or even multiple applications of an M damage spell!) But you have to go there, don't you? And who knows what else is there?

There is a parallel situation in the Banishment of a Free Spirit. Normally this is temporary, but using its spirit formula permanently Banishes it. What is the point of this new spell, if it doesn't do anything different except limit the target to one? Well, and drop the Drain by one.

As it turns out for Bryneir, she currently has no spell that deals Physical damage. Don't ask. This opponent is important enough to her that learning a one-shot spell that nukes it is worth it. Especially if she doesn't have to follow it to its home plane. Bryneir knows what waits at her home plane for an interloper.

[Udoshi]

There's the rub, eh? Does this spell kill permanently even here in the physical plane? If it doesn't, then there is no point to learn a different spell, as any P damage spell will kill on the target Free Spirit's metaplane. (Or even multiple applications of an M damage spell!) But you have to go there, don't you? And who knows what else is there?

There is a parallel situation in the Banishment of a Free Spirit. Normally this is temporary, but using its spirit formula permanently Banishes it. What is the point of this new spell, if it doesn't do anything different except limit the target to one? Well, and drop the Drain by one.

As it turns out for Bryneir, she currently has no spell that deals Physical damage. Don't ask. This opponent is important enough to her that learning a one-shot spell that nukes it is worth it. Especially if she doesn't have to follow it to its home plane. Bryneir knows what waits at her home plane for an interloper.

You are completely ignoring the fact that your spell is part of their formula. You just have it, always, and can't lose it.

[pbangarth]

No, no. I understand completely. Your earlier discussion made lots of sense. But Bryneir is focused on destroying this opponent, not controlling her. Once the spirit formula is fabricated, Bryneir could arrange for a magician capable of Banishing the Madam to do so, but there is an underlying history for Bryneir that makes direct action by her in this matter a priority.

The spirit formula will still have to be manufactured. Then the spell learned, which in itself will be an interesting process for a Free Spirit. All kinds of things can happen in between. But it would be good to have talked it over first with the GM with some reasoned opinion behind the discussion.

[Seth]

Then the spell learned, which in itself will be an interesting process for a Free Spirit

As you rightly point out it will be interesting as the free spirit can only learn by watching it being cast. So they have to persuade someone else to part with 5 karma to learn the spell, then see it used....

[Traks]

There's SLAY DRAGON or KILL DRAGON O.o

The correct spell is "dragonslave". Only redhead sorceresses can cast it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Stahlseele]

"I said SLAY the Dragon, not LAY the Dragon!"

[Draco18s]

"I said SLAY the Dragon, not LAY the Dragon!"

Man, every time this comes up there's an image I want to post.
But I can NEVER FIND IT.

Features a "half-dragon" going to hug a knight with mom off to one side grinning.

[Dahrken]

You're thinking about THIS ONE ?

[Draco18s]

You're thinking about THIS ONE ?

Actually, yes.

[Tyro]

You're thinking about THIS ONE ?

Awesome

[Draco18s]

Awesome

I know, isn't it? I recall trying to find that picture at least twice before.