Perception dice pools, Whats the max? Options

[Mäx]

So i decided to see how high dice pools i could get for a character, would appreciate some comments to make sure i made no mistakes and didn't miss any possible extra dice sources(except the ones for raising intuition), also it would be nicce if some one could bother to sheck my math to make sure i didn't misscalcuale

[ Spoiler ]

Mister Perceptive
Stats:
Intuition 6
Magic 6
Skills:
Perception 6
Qualities:
Adept 5
Mentor spirit owl +2 to perception tests 5
Perceptive 2 +2 to perception tests 10
Adept powers:
Enhanced perception 6 +6 to all perception tests
Improved physical ability perception 3
Ware:
Reception Enhancer 3 +3 to all perception tests
Qualia +1 to intuition linked skill tests
Synch +1 to all perception test
Raitng 3 Limbic nanites +3 to all intuition linked skill test
Oracle reality amplifier +2 to physical perception tests
Attention Coprocessor 3 +3 to physical perception tests
Vision Enhancement 3 +3 to visual perception tests
Audio Enhancement 3 +3 to aural perception test
Tactile Sensitivity +2 to all touch-based perception tests
Olfactory Booster 6 +6 to all smell-based perception tests
Taste Booster 6 +6 to all taste-based perception tests
Other:
Betel +1 to perception

Vision:
6+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+2+3+3+1= 46 dice
Hearing:
6+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+2+3+3+1= 46 dice
Touch:
6+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+2+3+2+1= 45 dice
Smell:
6+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+2+3+6+1= 49 dice
Taste:
6+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+2+3+6+1= 49 dice

[Makki]

you got the core. furthermore:
-the obvious is increasing Intuition (surge, gentech, magic...)
-drugs: Betel, eX,...
-genetic infusion Sideways, but might be the same ingredient as Synch
-TacNet situationally

[Mäx]

-drugs: Betel, eX,...

Dammit, how could i forget Betel, well its added in now.

[Thanee]

Yeah, it's a bit silly how much Perception bonuses are out there... and then you make opposed rolls with Perception against Disguise, Stealth and such.

It's no fair! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Quake]

Nitro (SR4, core) raises Perception by 2.

[Saint Sithney]

Pyche and Betameth also boost intuition.

[mmmkay]

aptitude, specialization

[Sephiroth]

I see you're not worrying about magic reduction from 'ware. In that case, all the Infected, shapeshifters, etc. with Enhanced (regular) Senses get an extra +2 dice to specific-enhanced-sense-based perception tests (Enhanced Hearing gets +2 to hearing-based perception, for example). It forces deltaware, yeah, but you don't seem to be worrying about that here.

[Yerameyahu]

You can get that from SURGE instead, AFAIK?

[InfinityzeN]

Enhanced Pheromone Receptors III

[Mäx]

Enhanced Pheromone Receptors III

As far as i understand, that doesn't stack with Olfactory Boosters

[Glyph]

The rules are unclear on whether or not olfactory boosters are a complete replacement for the natural sense of smell, or not. If they are not, I would say they stack, since the fluff specifically states that they work in different ways (one more intuitively).

I think it's likelier to be a full replacement, though, because you can turn your sense of smell off completely with it (plus terms such as "cybersnout" make me think full replacement).

[Yerameyahu]

I think it's just an implanted sensor, actually. If it's not, just *use* the external version. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Eimi]

The rules are unclear on whether or not olfactory boosters are a complete replacement for the natural sense of smell, or not. If they are not, I would say they stack, since the fluff specifically states that they work in different ways (one more intuitively).

I think it's likelier to be a full replacement, though, because you can turn your sense of smell off completely with it (plus terms such as "cybersnout" make me think full replacement).

I think, except for cybereyes, pretty much all of the four non-touch sense cyberware items (cyberears, olfactory booster, taste booster) offer the option of either augmentation or full replacement. Like, you can just get the inner ear bits altered with cyberears, or you can get artificial exterior ears too, whether obviously artificial or natural-looking. I'd assume that if you got your nose cut off by some mafia type, you could get an olfactory booster which included a synthetic replacement nose to go with it. Likewise with a cut-out tongue. Or, if you hadn't lost them, and didn't feel like going the full 'cut it off and have it replaced with figurative chrome' approach, you could just have your natural bits augmented just like the inner ear mods that make up the basis of cyberears.

Least, that's how I'd interpret it.

[Yerameyahu]

See, I feel like none of them are replacements. It's a 'booster', not a cybernose (snout nickname notwithstanding). The olfactory and taste boosters both say 'enhance'. It *is* annoying how neither really mentions their physical form. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Bull]

Most sane GMs should be using the optional "Max DIce Pool" rules. Which 20 or double your Skill+Attribute, whichever is higher.

[Sephiroth]

Most sane GMs should be using the optional "Max DIce Pool" rules. Which 20 or double your Skill+Attribute, whichever is higher.

You can still reach 40+ dice with that rule if you do it right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

[toturi]

Most sane GMs should be using the optional "Max DIce Pool" rules. Which 20 or double your Skill+Attribute, whichever is higher.

It is important to note however Perception DP is also a dice pool that can have a lot of negative modifiers. For example, Concealment, Invisibility and Rutherium all impose negative modifiers to Perception (vision) tests.

[Mardrax]

I think it's likelier to be a full replacement, though, because you can turn your sense of smell off completely with it (plus terms such as "cybersnout" make me think full replacement).

Not much of an argument. 'Turning off' -or in medical terms, inhibiting- the sense of smell is a natural function of the body.
Ever notice how you only percieve smells in an area for a short time, until some quality of the smell changes? Prevailing theory says that's not due to your conscious attention shifting away, it's your central nervous system preventing the neural impulses from even getting to the cerebrum at all (from getting past the olfactory bulb, IIRC). Cyberware could easily subject this function to direct control without replacing anything.

In fact, pretty much any consciously percieved sensation can be blocked, or in a lot of cases enhanced by careful manipulation of proper areas of the brain. See the functioning of VR full sensory and motor control override. Being able to directly apply chemicals to both bloodstream and neural pathways just makes it a whole lot easier.

[Bull]

You can still reach 40+ dice with that rule if you do it right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

Hrmm, just had a whole post written up, then reread things, and the rule got even tighter, so had to erase it.

Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the characters natural Attribute + Skill ratings whichever is higher.

The Italics are not mine, they're in the book.

The absolute highest natural, unaugmented attribute is 11 (Troll Body or Strength with Exceptional Attribute applied) and a skill of 7 (With Aptitude applied). This means the dice pool cap is effectively at 36, since no other metahuman can get a higher attribute.

Ork Body caps at 34 dice. Dwarf & Ork Body, and Elf Charisma caps at 32 dice. Dwarf Bod and Elf Agility caps at 30. All other racial tests cap at 28 or lower.

So you can still get some pretty high DPs, but they're a bit more sane than some people trot out. Granted, it's listed as a Gamemaster Option, but it's a good one, and one of the hadnful of Optional Rules we do allow (and enforce) in Missions.

of course, the single best way to handle things is for GMs to simply talk with your players and discuss where they want their game to be set at. If your expectations are Dice Pools of 20 or less for top end skills, and 10-14 for moderate skills, let players know that so they know what to expect from the opposition, and they know what to shoot for when building their characters. And tehy know what to avoid. Shadowrun is a game of very different potential power levels, and much like a SUpers Game, it can be no fun if someone brings Superman to a street level game. And few systems that can handle both ends of the power scale balance it well. You have to trust that GMs and players will work together to build characters balanced with each other.

Bull

[Makki]

Gentech, Infection and Surge push the natural maximum

[Bull]

True. But those rules are not well balanced or tested, and are better off ignored and not used, IMNSHO. And even then, they don't generally push it up all that much. Again this also comes down to Gamemasters and PLayers working together to create a balanced group. And, keep in mind that Infected and CHangelings comes with a host of penalties that aren't dice pool related. The Infected especially, since most countries have active bounties on them.

[Makki]

I was just being smart-ass *g*

I was thinking of changing the rule to: max dice pool = Skill x4
that'll greatly encourage raising skills. on a marginal note, this although favors "unpopular" qualities like Catlike, Natural Athlete and Outdoorsman (with aptitude and reflex recorder one can reach lvl 9 skills without being an Adept)

[Mäx]

The absolute highest natural, unaugmented attribute is 11 (Troll Body or Strength with Exceptional Attribute applied) and a skill of 7 (With Aptitude applied). This means the dice pool cap is effectively at 36, since no other metahuman can get a higher attribute.

Actually no, Fomori Ghoul with exceptional attribute body has a natural max of 16 for Body.
For other attributes the maximum possible natural max is 9 + racial modifiers (for example elfs natural charisma max is 11)

So you can still get some pretty high DPs, but they're a bit more sane than some people trot out. Granted, it's listed as a Gamemaster Option, but it's a good one, and one of the hadnful of Optional Rules we do allow (and enforce) in Missions.

I think its kinda stupid rule and makes lots of equipment in the game totally pointless.

[StealthSigma]

Reflex Recorder for Perception.

It's criteria only require the skill to be a combat or physical skill of which Perception is in the Physical Active Skill section. There is no requirement that the skill be linked to a physical attribute.