Perception dice pools, Whats the max? Options

[Yerameyahu]

If the GM is sending a super-duper Concealed+ sniper, then it's for the reason that it's not supposed to be findable. If it's just a normal part of the game, it wouldn't be a munchkiNPC.

I don't think it's at all unusual to assume the GM is matching the game to the players. It'd be very unusual not to, except for modules, and they wouldn't have this theoretical megasniper. AFAIK.

Regardless, the point is still that you don't need Perception 49. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

If the GM is sending a super-duper Concealed+ sniper, then it's for the reason that it's not supposed to be findable. If it's just a normal part of the game, it wouldn't be a munchkiNPC.

I don't think it's at all unusual to assume the GM is matching the game to the players. It'd be very unusual not to, except for modules, and they wouldn't have this theoretical megasniper. AFAIK.

Regardless, the point is still that you don't need Perception 49. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If the GM does not want his NPC to be found, then it doesn't matter how he does so. But even if it is just a normal part of the game, there could still be such an NPC.

I agree that it would be unusual for the GM to not match the game to the players.

Regardless, the point is still that you might still need that much Perception. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Never. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Quake]

Different senses, different perception DPs. That sniper could be invisible practically-speaking, and really master the art of infiltration, but even then you could smell him or even hear him to some slight extent. The thermal damping/ruthenium suits don't apply to ultra wide-band radars or ultrasounds. Those visibility modifiers don't apply to sound, even if one must still beat the infiltration opposed check. But still, infiltration doesn't apply to smell, and silenced gunshots still spread a chemical fragrance in the air. There are just too many senses, and so few methods of improving stealth in all those areas that's its just totally impractical.

So, I don't believe you can truly evade all senses or detection methods, unless the BP pool is so much different that focusing on combat for that NPC would instead make an almost unbeatable character anyway.

And, like what has been said : GMs can make 'plot' characters that bypass the rules/fudge the dice for everyone's pleasure/save BBEGs by divine intervention when they want.

[InfinityzeN]

Quake,
All that you posted is why my Sammies tend to have maxed out Cybereyes, Cyberears, Olfactory Booster, Taste Booster, Radar Sensor, and Ultrasound Sensor. Throw in some Sensorsofts and stick several RFID sensors on their clothing as well. "I am the all seeing, all knowing, all shooting Sammie."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Quake,
All that you posted is why my Sammies tend to have maxed out Cybereyes, Cyberears, Olfactory Booster, Taste Booster, Radar Sensor, and Ultrasound Sensor. Throw in some Sensorsofts and stick several RFID sensors on their clothing as well. "I am the all seeing, all knowing, all shooting Sammie."

Except that at 1000-1500 Meters, you will still never See, Hear, Smell, Taste or Touch the Sniper... Ever... Hell, not even at ranges less than that in most urban environments...

After All... Most sensors do not have that much range to them... Your UWB has a range of 100 Meters, Ditto your Ultrasound... Smell (too far), Taste (Really?, Gice me a break), and Touch (laughable) will NEVER reach out to the ranges of a Sniper, Hearing will suffer MAJOR drawbacks (with a Minimum of -9 to the Detection, not ocunting extraneous modifiers like wind bearing and other noise), and you really need to have some bearing to actually look at to have a chance in Hell of locating a Sniper at that range with Sight, DP's notwithstanding... Which is why the Megasniper is not really a good choice for a character, PC or NPC... A properly played Sniper will rarely, if ever, face any opposition once he is ready to takke his shot. The only indicator of the sniper's presence will be the dead body on the ground/floor. Boring as a PC, and borders on Dickery as an NPC unless there are extraordinary circumstances that result in his presence.

Just Sayin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Quake]

But if the 'sniped' cannot locate the sniper because of range penalties, in the case of a very good infiltrator being the target, then how does the sniper locate the infiltrator if all senses are foiled at such a far distance (1.5km) ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Spotter drones.

[StealthSigma]

But if the 'sniped' cannot locate the sniper because of range penalties, in the case of a very good infiltrator being the target, then how does the sniper locate the infiltrator if all senses are foiled at such a far distance (1.5km) ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In both cases it's infiltration vs perception against visual and the sniper knows of the presence of the target and not vice versa until the sniper has done something to reveal himself to the target. A properly built sniper will have the advantage and be more likely to spot the target.

Note that it takes a simple action to look around in detail. There's no way that a person would be capable of taking in and analyzing a 1.5km radius of visual information to find that sniper that he doesn't know exists.

[toturi]

After All... Most sensors do not have that much range to them... Your UWB has a range of 100 Meters, Ditto your Ultrasound... Smell (too far), Taste (Really?, Gice me a break), and Touch (laughable) will NEVER reach out to the ranges of a Sniper, Hearing will suffer MAJOR drawbacks (with a Minimum of -9 to the Detection, not ocunting extraneous modifiers like wind bearing and other noise), and you really need to have some bearing to actually look at to have a chance in Hell of locating a Sniper at that range with Sight, DP's notwithstanding... Which is why the Megasniper is not really a good choice for a character, PC or NPC... A properly played Sniper will rarely, if ever, face any opposition once he is ready to takke his shot. The only indicator of the sniper's presence will be the dead body on the ground/floor. Boring as a PC, and borders on Dickery as an NPC unless there are extraordinary circumstances that result in his presence.

Just Sayin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

How are you getting the minimum -9 dice to Perception?

Remember by RAW, Perception doesn't really have any direction, so there is really no need to have any bearing to look at or listen towards.

[toturi]

There's no way that a person would be capable of taking in and analyzing a 1.5km radius of visual information to find that sniper that he doesn't know exists.

A normal person should not be able to do so. But that is what the huge Intuition part of the dice pool would represent - an instinctive knowledge to know where to look for danger within that 1.5km of sensory information.

[Mäx]

Except that at 1000-1500 Meters, you will still never See, Hear, Smell, Taste or Touch the Sniper... Ever... Hell, not even at ranges less than that in most urban environments...

After All... Most sensors do not have that much range to them... Your UWB has a range of 100 Meters, Ditto your Ultrasound... Smell (too far), Taste (Really?, Gice me a break), and Touch (laughable) will NEVER reach out to the ranges of a Sniper, Hearing will suffer MAJOR drawbacks (with a Minimum of -9 to the Detection, not ocunting extraneous modifiers like wind bearing and other noise)

Your talking like -9 to hearing DP is somekind of a problem, my character from OP can take more then -20 to any perception pool and still have a pretty much 100% change to succeed, with little extra optimization based on the succestions in this topic a -30 dice isn't much of a problem either.

[Mardrax]

But if the 'sniped' cannot locate the sniper because of range penalties, in the case of a very good infiltrator being the target, then how does the sniper locate the infiltrator if all senses are foiled at such a far distance (1.5km) ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

General knowledge of where to look + Image Magnification to negate all range penalties.

I disagree on Timeaus' point of actually needing a bearing to counterspot though. That's what the range penalty is for.
You might coin a higher penalty for it, of course, depending on cicrumstances. But barring obstructions and other circumstances to make perception more difficult, it really shouldn't be that hard to see someone not making an effort to not be seen, a mile away. Apply circumstances from there on. You'll need the ungodly perception pools to catch him, sure.
Still, to just say 'no' would be arbitrarily robbing a player of something he obviously thought was an interesting character to play, IMHO.

[StealthSigma]

Your talking like -9 to hearing DP is somekind of a problem, my character from OP can take more then -20 to any perception pool and still have a pretty much 100% change to succeed, with little extra optimization based on the succestions in this topic a -30 dice isn't much of a problem either.

Just have the sniper carry an object that emits a very strong stealth or silence spell.

[StealthSigma]

General knowledge of where to look + Image Magnification to negate all range penalties.

I disagree on Timeaus' point of actually needing a bearing to counterspot though. That's what the range penalty is for.
You might coin a higher penalty for it, of course, depending on cicrumstances. But barring obstructions and other circumstances to make perception more difficult, it really shouldn't be that hard to see someone not making an effort to not be seen, a mile away. Apply circumstances from there on. You'll need the ungodly perception pools to catch him, sure.
Still, to just say 'no' would be arbitrarily robbing a player of something he obviously thought was an interesting character to play, IMHO.

The ranged penalty is not for bearing. It's for resolution. If you don't know where to look, which most players character would not know where to look, then you will have to spend MULTIPLE simple actions looking for something you don't know exists. Not to mentioned, despite knowing WHERE to look (which I find a dubious proposition at best given the tools available in Shadowrun), you will need to know WHAT to look for. You don't know if the sniper is using a ghillie suit to blend with the environment or ruthenium to just be unseen. You can take in the entire picture with the range penalties, or you can image mag to negate them and have to do more simple actions.

[toturi]

The ranged penalty is not for bearing. It's for resolution. If you don't know where to look, which most players character would not know where to look, then you will have to spend MULTIPLE simple actions looking for something you don't know exists. Not to mentioned, despite knowing WHERE to look (which I find a dubious proposition at best given the tools available in Shadowrun), you will need to know WHAT to look for. You don't know if the sniper is using a ghillie suit to blend with the environment or ruthenium to just be unseen. You can take in the entire picture with the range penalties, or you can image mag to negate them and have to do more simple actions.

Is there, by RAW, a range penalty? And if so, how great is it?

[StealthSigma]

Is there, by RAW, a range penalty? And if so, how great is it?

The rules are vague enough that weapon range category distance penalties could be applied as a perception penalty in addition to the range penalties listed in Perception penalty/bonuses chart. The rules also do not dictate whether these penalties stack, so I can see a -11 penalty from range being plausible. Add a -4 for Ruthenium, a -6 for light conditions. Now if you want to use thermographic? -6 for thermal dampening, -3 for light conditions. This is on an opposed test for a GM created PC that can very well have maxed out disguise and infiltration skills on top of intuition and agility that is pimped out.

The way I look at it. Trying to find the sniper before the sniper has revealed himself (typically by firing a shot) is a useless proposition since unless you are carrying a sporting rifle or sniper rifle yourself, there is practically nothing you can do against the sniper at the range he can very well be sitting at.

Thus if you're concerned about snipers, then you should just ignore wasting time looking for them and behave in a fashion that minimizes their ability to impact you, which is precisely the only actions you can do if you spot one.

Edit: I was looking at surprise rules, since the sniper is undoubtedly placed by a GM as an ambusher.

Pg165 of SR4A
SURPRISE AND PERCEPTION
Surprised character are normally unaware that a situation to which they need to react is forthcoming. This normally occurs because they either failed to perceive something (they didn't get enough hits to notice the concealed sniper) or because the gamemaster decides that they didn't even have a chance to perceive it (they blithely walk into a room they expect to be empty, but it's in fact filled with relaxing guard).

Note that even though they specifically point out sniper as part of a failed test, it can also qualify under the Rule 0 clause later in the sentence.

So no. The 30+ perception character cannot spot the sniper if the GM decides they don't get the chance to do it regardless of if they have the potential to do so.

[Mardrax]

The ranged penalty is not for bearing. It's for resolution. If you don't know where to look, which most players character would not know where to look, then you will have to spend MULTIPLE simple actions looking for something you don't know exists. Not to mentioned, despite knowing WHERE to look (which I find a dubious proposition at best given the tools available in Shadowrun), you will need to know WHAT to look for. You don't know if the sniper is using a ghillie suit to blend with the environment or ruthenium to just be unseen. You can take in the entire picture with the range penalties, or you can image mag to negate them and have to do more simple actions.

No, and no.

Knowing where to look is by RAW not a factor, beyond:
1) -2 penalty for being distracted
2) +3 bonus for actively looking for something

Forget facing. SR doesn't do facing. If you're rolling a perception test in the most general "what do I percieve?" sense, you're making one roll to take in everything around you. If you get enough net hits, you will see the orc hiding in the bushes 200 meters up ahead, you will hear the silenced gunshots a block away behind you, you will smell and probably taste the smoke on the wind, you will feel that annoying pebble that has been stuck in your shoe the past half an hour, you will see dark clouds coming up to your left, you will feel the increased moisture level in the air. And you will see all of it, barring if it has total cover.
Not knowing what to look for is part and parcel. Security personel will be looking for "signs of a threat/trouble", not for signs of "a ruthenium-cloaked orc, with a ruthenium cloaked sniper rifle in one of the windows on the third floor of that building". And they will succeed, given enough net hits to defeat the orc's Stealth roll. The second one just stands a better chance.

The range penalty (Perception test tables, SR4A pg 136: -2 for not in the immediate vincinity, -3 for far away) are for penalising trying to percieve anything at range. Requiring someone to know where to look to even stand a chance would, again, IMHO, be arbitrarily calling things, and nerfing someone's character while most likely railroading. Neither of them inherently bad. As a player though, I would be displeased, so be sure to discuss this sort of thing.
I'm very interested in where you get rules being vague enough to allow for weapon range penalties to be used, and even stacked on top of Perception rolls. As far as I'm aware, rules of what and what not to apply to Perception are pretty clear, as are rules on when to apply ranged combat modifiers. Could you cite a ruling that leads you to say this?

Does any of that change when using image mag? Not by RAW. Image mag's only use in RAW is to negate range penalties in ranged combat. Its only hindrance in RAW comes when needing to lock on anew if either you or your target move, when using it in this fashion.
Applying image mag to perception tests would be a house rule, and using the relocking rules for that would be a logical addition, making it a tedious process indeed.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How are you getting the minimum -9 dice to Perception?

Remember by RAW, Perception doesn't really have any direction, so there is really no need to have any bearing to look at or listen towards.

Easy... Minimum of -6 for the Internal SIlencer, and -3 for Medium Range (not going to shoot with a sniper rifle from short range or closer in most circumstances I would bet, unless you are a Swat Marksman), could be as much as -6 for Long Range... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
Not to mention opther things like target distracted, other noise in the immediate area, wind blowing against the shot, etc. Realistically locating a Sniper before he has taken his shot is ludicrous... it very rarely happens in real life... Snipers are located after the fact (if they are clumsy) or not at all...

[braincraft]

Good lord, what would it be like to live with 40+ perception? Even with multitasking coprocessors to keep you from going insane from the constant input overflow, you couldn't live like a normal person. You'd smell/taste everything in the air; you'd feel the ambient humidity and barometric pressure on your skin; you'd see every pore on every face, every flaw in every object. You could hear trains in the next county over. Add in nonhuman senses? Being able to detect heat and movement through walls, being able to detect the radio signals that bombard everybody constantly? It'd be like simultaneously living in a world that has no substance and swimming through a thick syrup of information, all the time. You'd have to turn off all your senses just to get any damn sleep.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Your talking like -9 to hearing DP is somekind of a problem, my character from OP can take more then -20 to any perception pool and still have a pretty much 100% change to succeed, with little extra optimization based on the succestions in this topic a -30 dice isn't much of a problem either.

Which is ludicrous given that he would be dead before he got to make that perception roll... so it really is a moot point in the long run...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Good lord, what would it be like to live with 40+ perception? Even with multitasking coprocessors to keep you from going insane from the constant input overflow, you couldn't live like a normal person. You'd smell/taste everything in the air; you'd feel the ambient humidity and barometric pressure on your skin; you'd see every pore on every face, every flaw in every object. You could hear trains in the next county over. Add in nonhuman senses? Being able to detect heat and movement through walls, being able to detect the radio signals that bombard everybody constantly? It'd be like simultaneously living in a world that has no substance and swimming through a thick syrup of information, all the time. You'd have to turn off all your senses just to get any damn sleep.

Indeed, but there are those who never even consider such things in play, so... *Shrug*

[Makki]

Good lord, what would it be like to live with 40+ perception? Even with multitasking coprocessors to keep you from going insane from the constant input overflow, you couldn't live like a normal person. You'd smell/taste everything in the air; you'd feel the ambient humidity and barometric pressure on your skin; you'd see every pore on every face, every flaw in every object. You could hear trains in the next county over. Add in nonhuman senses? Being able to detect heat and movement through walls, being able to detect the radio signals that bombard everybody constantly? It'd be like simultaneously living in a world that has no substance and swimming through a thick syrup of information, all the time. You'd have to turn off all your senses just to get any damn sleep.

ever seen Monk? he's ueberperceptive, but he struggles, because he can't stand what he perceives, not because of the input.
a trained human can easily shut off senses. furthermore, without multitasking capabilities you're actually not able to process all the input. it enters one ear and leaves th other one. Imagine 10 people standing close and talking. You just don't care unless you try to listen to them all at once.

[Mardrax]

and -3 for Medium Range (not going to shoot with a sniper rifle from short range or closer in most circumstances I would bet, unless you are a Swat Marksman), could be as much as -6 for Long Range...

Again, as far as I'm aware, the maximum range penalty to Perception rolls by RAW is -3. Also, basing Perception penalties off the range of whatever someone is using as a weapon seems off.

ever seen Monk? he's ueberperceptive, but he struggles, because he can't stand what he perceives, not because of the input.
a trained human can easily shut off senses. furthermore, without multitasking capabilities you're actually not able to process all the input. it enters one ear and leaves th other one. Imagine 10 people standing close and talking. You just don't care unless you try to listen to them all at once.

IMHO, 12 dice worth of Intuition + Perception alone should make you multitasking for perception purposes. The ware (natural senses, or vision/audio enhancer etc) just determines the ammount, and quality of the input, the mental side (stat+skill) determines your ability to cope with the input.
This character should by all rights be able to see every pore, while hearing and feeling the train coming miles away.
It doesn't all consciously register, but should anything change, subconscious control (Intuition) will pick that change up and make it consciously register.

[Mäx]

Which is ludicrous given that he would be dead before he got to make that perception roll... so it really is a moot point in the long run...

No he wouldn't, not unless your GM fiating my character dead and doing that is pretty much the ultimate dick move.