Perception dice pools, Whats the max? Options

[StealthSigma]

No he wouldn't, not unless your GM fiating my character dead and doing that is pretty much the ultimate dick move.

Any character who is not built to survive lots of damage and armor penetration will be dead. Which means that unless the entire party is made of such characters, someone will be dead or have just burnt a point of edge, unless the GM intentionally targets the tank to herd the party.

[Mäx]

Any character who is not built to survive lots of damage and armor penetration will be dead. Which means that unless the entire party is made of such characters, someone will be dead or have just burnt a point of edge, unless the GM intentionally targets the tank to herd the party.

Dead from what exactly, all we have at this point is a sniper hiding and my character doing a perception check to notice him.

[onlyghostdancesw...]

No he wouldn't, not unless your GM fiating my character dead and doing that is pretty much the ultimate dick move.

it depends on the campaign setting, if you are going for a gritty clos(er) to irl version of SR4, there are times in my campaign where a character makes the wrong choice at the wrong time of going out into the open. That CAN but wont always result in death (it really depends if I had an ambush there as I usually plan out what is going on in other parts of the city and facilities and then just let the chips fall where they may. As a GM, unless the players are noobs to SR I really dont try to save or kill of their character which is to say that I wont keep them from dieing but then again I wont hunt them down unless they get sloppy/ piss off alot of ppl. It's why the best (aka most successful mission) is the one you dont get caught doing.

No trails no notice until its way too late.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Dead from what exactly, all we have at this point is a sniper hiding and my character doing a perception check to notice him.

But why would you be specifically concentrating on something that you cannot even perceive with your senses, at a range of 1500 meters? Try it sometime... and then make that sweep for every possdible spot that could actually hide someone with a gun looking to kill you. I have always said that a properly played Sniper will kill his target almost every time. He may not always escape, but the odds more than favor it at the ranges that are capable of being used.

Of course, the character would get to resist the damage, but I would not really put any money into it if I were you...

Any other result is metagaming at its worst in my opinion...
No different, really, than getting into a car with a bomb attached to it... The character would likely die without knowing what hit him... are you going to argue that you should get a perception roll to notice something you likely cannot see (will not be in a place where it can be physically observed), and likely will not smell (not hard to seal something like that after all)?

[StealthSigma]

But why would you be specifically concentrating on something that you cannot even perceive with your senses, at a range of 1500 meters? Try it sometime... and then make that sweep for every possdible spot that could actually hide someone with a gun looking to kill you. I have always said that a properly played Sniper will kill his target almost every time. He may not always escape, but the odds more than favor it at the ranges that are capable of being used.

Exactly. Players would not, and should not have a perception check for a sniper UNTIL the sniper has made his presence known, which if he is at all talented means one player probably just received a sucking chest wound, recently had his central nervous system destroyed, or he's bleeding profusely from the leg. At that point the player (and everyone with him) would get the opportunity to make a perception check to spot the sniper assuming they beat him on the surprise test which would be practically impossible for anyone other than an initiative junkie who might have a chance. Otherwise they'll have to wait until the next initiative pass and if they didn't beat the initiative of the sniper, there's a chance that another two players get sucking chest wounds, a destroyed central nervous system, or leg wounds that are bleeding profusely.

And as you said, any other outcome is metagaming on the players part unless for some reason they had acquired information previously that would suggest a sniper may be in the area.

[Yerameyahu]

Which brings us back to the original point: you never need a Perception pool that high. It's just interesting to look into the maximum, but unlike firearms-vs.-dodge, this simply isn't a realistically important opposed situation; and unlike Social or Programming, it's not used for any important Extended tests either, so 'extra hits' aren't even a reason.

[Mardrax]

SR is a game about superhuman capabilities still, Tymeaus.
While no one at the peak of human ability, aided by SOTA tech should be able to notice a sniper, notice him firing, and react to it in time, "try it some time" is insufficient argument to say something is impossible.
If you want to apply some real world logic to it, realise that with a muzzle velocity of right about 800m/s (or mach 2.3) which I believe is fairly common for sniper rifles used today, a bullet will take right about 2 seconds to hit a target a mile away. That gives the average sammie an entire IP to get to grips with the concept of a bullet coming for his face. And one to respond. This translates ingame into increased initiative, and increased reaction, which makes him both more likely to not be surprised (pick up on being fired upon), it also makes him more likely to be able to dodge.

The same scale of superhumanity applies to Perception.
RAW explicitly states that any character should be allowed Perception tests even if they didn't actually say they take that Observe in Detail action, they just take a -2 for being distracted by whatever it is they are explicitly doing.
RAW never mentions having to specifically focus on something, other than that doing so it gets you a bonus to the roll.
RAW also explicitly states that GMs should, and should only, call for a Perception test "when something is not immediately noticeable or when a situation is so hectic that certain things might be overlooked." Now say what you want, a hidden siper situation sounds like it adheres to tose limitations, and should be allowed. IMHO, your duty is to make the threshold he's aiming for so inhibitively high that no >25 Perception dicepool character has a shot at making it, short of serious edge usage.
When you have a player that has the 30+ Perception dicepools (when not disallowing those off the bat) this seems exactly the kind of situation for which he built his character to have that insane dicepool. It seems like he was building his character thinking 'it would be awesome if I could spot things no one else could." If you're going to be saying "no, just no" to even the idea, you should have talked to him way beforehand about it, told him "this is utterly useless as I'll rule anything needing a pool like that as impossible and not even allow you a roll."

Of course, you're validated in saying that surprise has the option of taking the GM wildcard, but this doesn't at all scope up to something like the example there. The sniper is there, needs a line of sight to the character, for at least half an IP to negate range, but I'm assuming he'll max out on his Take Aim bonus as well, assuming he's safe in hiding, so that's a few passes of aiming at least. In the mean time, the victim should have a line of sight to the sniper the whole time. The character isn't walking into anywhere, he's not even moving for the sniper to be able to negate range. He has time to observe his surroundings, and if he doesn't, again, the penalty for distraction is -2, not "impossible".

You're making demands that veer far away from RAW, which is of course no problem, but you're IMHO taking something away from the transcendental theme, which I find a shame.

[Mardrax]

Which brings us back to the original point: you never need a Perception pool that high. It's just interesting to look into the maximum, but unlike firearms-vs.-dodge, this simply isn't a realistically important opposed situation; and unlike Social or Programming, it's not used for any important Extended tests either, so 'extra hits' aren't even a reason.

It isn't? I do believe high profile target bodyguarding would warrant these kind of situations to some degree, probably a good factor smaller, but still.
This might not be a standard run scenario, but we've seen enough funky non-runner campaign ideas tossed around to warrant the idea. A character built like this might have prevented a dimensional rift in DeeCee. And the system allows it to.

[Yerameyahu]

I want to clarify a little bit, here. I'm saying that there aren't realistically situations that would call for an *extreme* Perception pool. Either it's merely 'hard', which is a pool well under 30; or it's simply impossible (no test), so no amount of DP matters. I agree that *if* a character hyper-mega-specialized in this (for no good reason), then the GM should and would give him chances to use it… artificial and contrived player-fit chances. Cause and effect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As you say, any realistic situation would be 'a good factor smaller', which is the whole point. The scale matters.

It's the same reasons against the pornomancer, except a huge social pool could actually have major uses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm saying the Perception is impractical, even compared to *that*. No, it won't mess up any campaign (anything not meant to be Perceivable simply won't have a test), but it'll be a shame for the player to have sunk the resources, and he'll *expect* chances to use his full ability.

[Irion]

@StealthSigma

Exactly. Players would not, and should not have a perception check for a sniper UNTIL the sniper has made his presence known, which if he is at all talented means one player probably just received a sucking chest wound, recently had his central nervous system destroyed, or he's bleeding profusely from the leg.

Sorry, but this is just railroading.
If sniper sits there waiting with some army cloth and a perception dice pool of 5 and the player on the other hand has Chameleon Suit and a perception of 20. Well, I guess it is obvious who should spot who.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

But why would you be specifically concentrating on something that you cannot even perceive with your senses, at a range of 1500 meters? Try it sometime... and then make that sweep for every possdible spot that could actually hide someone with a gun looking to kill you.

Guess what, thats why human perception does not work that way. We react to movement/change.
And a perception of 20 is far beyond human capacity.
So if you can see it at 200 Meter range why should sombody with perception 39 not see it from a 1500 m range?

And the sniper still needs to spot the runner.


To get back to the question if a dice pool as high is usefull. Not it is not.
Why? Because the cases, where you actually need these extra dices is very limited.
So to speak:
Making use of 2 hits or more (about five times every game)
Making use of 3 hits or more (still 4-5 times per game)
Making use of 4 hits or more (about 3 times per game)
Making use of 5 hits or more (about 1 times per game)
Making use of 6 hits or more (about one time in a campaign)

So you will get something out of a perception dicepool of ten because you will find secret compartments, spot people in the crowed and so on.
But if you hit 15 there no longer tends to be a distinction. If you find everything in the room you will not find more.

[Quake]

Reading some comments, it's really as if snipers were invincible. But if it is so, then I'm pretty sure player's can headshot every single living NPC by the same argument : "my hidden sniper is impossible to perceive, your NPCs can't roll perception!". Reversing the situation seems rather telling : no DM would let a team of snipers go unchecked for eternity, and he would give his NPCs some chance of noticing what's going on. If so, why is it so unthinkable that players get a chance to notice hidden snipers (with the exception of plot-enhancing hooks, of course).

And can someone tell me how many 1.5 km-long straight lines he can trace inside a city ? 1.5km is fragging big ! You rarely get a chance to find such a long line, usually this seems much shorter, no ?

[toturi]

The rules are vague enough that weapon range category distance penalties could be applied as a perception penalty in addition to the range penalties listed in Perception penalty/bonuses chart.

From a strict reading of the RAW, the rules for Perception are clear enough. There is no explicit rule calling to apply weapon range category penalties in addition to the range penalties in the Perception modifiers chart.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Reading some comments, it's really as if snipers were invincible. But if it is so, then I'm pretty sure player's can headshot every single living NPC by the same argument : "my hidden sniper is impossible to perceive, your NPCs can't roll perception!". Reversing the situation seems rather telling : no DM would let a team of snipers go unchecked for eternity, and he would give his NPCs some chance of noticing what's going on. If so, why is it so unthinkable that players get a chance to notice hidden snipers (with the exception of plot-enhancing hooks, of course).

And can someone tell me how many 1.5 km-long straight lines he can trace inside a city ? 1.5km is fragging big ! You rarely get a chance to find such a long line, usually this seems much shorter, no ?

Which is why, in every game that I have ever played in, Sniper concepts are immediately and irrevecoably shut down... You can be a good shot, but you will never really get to perform those types of situations in a game, unless the GM specifically makes them available to you... If I, as a GM allowed the players to do so, then they would have to be okay with the NPC's doing so. Realistically, most players are happy to forgo the risk of a shot that they have no way of stoppoing. If you allow NPC Snipers in the game, you will end up with a LOT of dead PC's with Snipers used to their full expertise. Which is what I said earlier... There are an innumerable number of ways a character can die with no warning, and with no way to even perceive it.

As for reliable 1.5 km shots available, in any given major metropolitan area, you would be very surprised indeed (There are a LOT of such areas (Hell, I work in one, actually, where I could potshot targets just over a mile away, and in an Arc of almost 90 Degrees, from my DESK), as long as you are okay with not having full shot lanes in a 360 degree radius. You will be able to find them, and the best Snipers will be able to make maximum use of them, if they did their homework)... Though you do have a point... 800 meters is much more realistic a range, and still well beyond detection capabilities prior to an actual shot, ESPECIALLY in an urban environment, where you could have literally thousands of potential windows from which it originated from on a long street axis... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mardrax]

Sitting on top of a skyscraper will give you plenty 1.5 km shot opportunities. Not that it's very comfortable, but that's what you get weather resstant clothing for. Sitting in a window in one (disregarding windows at that height usually don't open since a window isn't that hard to get around) gives you a more comfortable, limited arc shot. Get yourself an LTA vehicle and all bets are off. Again, much fun in a regular game? Nope. But it can make for a nice element if you prepare the players for it mentally.

Hrm. The movie Phone Booth comes to mind. Awesome stuff.

[Mäx]

Exactly. Players would not, and should not have a perception check for a sniper UNTIL the sniper has made his presence known

So you did just GM fiat my character to dead, well good job being a dick GM.

Well at least all the runs will be easy, as non of the quards will ever notice my character sneaking by and killing them, as you don't get to make perspection checks for them, becouse i say that my character is undetactable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[onlyghostdancesw...]

SR is a game about superhuman capabilities still, Tymeaus.
While no one at the peak of human ability, aided by SOTA tech should be able to notice a sniper, notice him firing, and react to it in time, "try it some time" is insufficient argument to say something is impossible.
If you want to apply some real world logic to it, realise that with a muzzle velocity of right about 800m/s (or mach 2.3) which I believe is fairly common for sniper rifles used today, a bullet will take right about 2 seconds to hit a target a mile away. That gives the average sammie an entire IP to get to grips with the concept of a bullet coming for his face. And one to respond. This translates ingame into increased initiative, and increased reaction, which makes him both more likely to not be surprised (pick up on being fired upon), it also makes him more likely to be able to dodge.

*snip*

You're making demands that veer far away from RAW, which is of course no problem, but you're IMHO taking something away from the transcendental theme, which I find a shame.

ok you sir fail at math. 800m/s is a good figure but you forgot the only indicator (pre-impact that is) of a round in flight: sound, sound only moves at a generalized speed of 340.29 m/s which leaves the bullet arriving rather quicker than the shot. You could marginalize this by muzzle flash but any sniper worth his salt will have thought of that and have a gas vent, silencer etc so that that wont be an issue not to mention shooting from inside cover.

So in your example of a shot from beyond the mile aka 1609.344 meters the shot does indeed take 2.01168 seconds to get to the target. However given that a combat turn is actually 3 seconds the bullet is arriving somewhere on the 3rd IP of the Sniper (as hes the only one in combat as yet) with a surprise test still to roll. The sound itself *that is if it was just a raw bore shot* will arrive 4.73 seconds after the shot (so basically IP 2 of Snipers Combat Turn 2). Its safe to say that if the sniper gets the hits, these can be construed to him taking in the coriollis effect etc and having led the target appropriately).

I dont honestly see how you could perceive against that stuff.

[Seth]

I have always said that a properly played Sniper will kill his target almost every time.

IBM have a patent on a suit to protect people (like the pope) from ranged snipers. It is linked to millimetre radar, and given the time of flight is several seconds, moves the wearer out of the way of the bullet. Its not available yet, but will be soon. Its the kind of thing that people with wired reflexes and radar would just have.

I am of course talking real world not necessarily shadowrun, but if we can nearly do it today, then by 2070 everyone and their dog will have one.

[onlyghostdancesw...]

yeah but then its an arms race to determine if you can make a bullet (or just start using lasers etc since they wont register on that wave especially if you go infrared etc) that can fake a millimetere scanner.

[Irion]

ok you sir fail at math. 800m/s is a good figure but you forgot the only indicator (pre-impact that is) of a round in flight: sound, sound only moves at a generalized speed of 340.29 m/s which leaves the bullet arriving rather quicker than the shot. You could marginalize this by muzzle flash but any sniper worth his salt will have thought of that and have a gas vent, silencer etc so that that wont be an issue not to mention shooting from inside cover.

Well, and nobody is moving in this 2 seconds.
If you want to simulate it just make an Edge roll. If you got 2 or more hits the bullet misses you, because you were lucky.

Its safe to say that if the sniper gets the hits, these can be construed to him taking in the coriollis effect etc and having led the target appropriately).

Yeah, because you are able to anticipate sudden movements...

[onlyghostdancesw...]

Well, and nobody is moving in this 2 seconds.
If you want to simulate it just make an Edge roll. If you got 2 or more hits the bullet misses you, because you were lucky.


Yeah, because you are able to anticipate sudden movements...

happens a fair amount IRL without all the nice gear that SR is supposed to have. Id possibly go with the edge roll or the edge attribute as a negative modifier to the hits as a passive dodge mechanic at that range.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, because you are able to anticipate sudden movements...

Actually, Very Skilled Snipers can do this... They tend to use patterns of movement to anticipate where you may indeed be when the bullet actaully arrives... Now, if you just all of a sudden break dance or jump up and down for no apparent reason, then yes, that will affect the shot, but how many people do THAT in real life?

But, the relatively immobile shot is the norm, except for predictable movement like riding in a vehicle, or movement away (or towards) the shooter...

[Mardrax]

ok you sir fail at math. 800m/s is a good figure but you forgot the only indicator (pre-impact that is) of a round in flight: sound, sound only moves at a generalized speed of 340.29 m/s which leaves the bullet arriving rather quicker than the shot. You could marginalize this by muzzle flash but any sniper worth his salt will have thought of that and have a gas vent, silencer etc so that that wont be an issue not to mention shooting from inside cover.

Not at math, at common sense or physics maybe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) You are absolutely right, of course.
About sound. I didn't mention sound though.

There's the visual cue of a flying bullet, which again, is quite imperceptible to normal humans, but a 40 perception character shouldn't have too much trouble seeing a bullet in flight. A micro sized target makes for a threshold of 4, with some penalties to the roll for being far off (~800 meters at the start of the sam's first IP after the shot), the character being distracted and whatnot. If you really wanted to make that tough, you could have even the bullet concealed and invisible, which would really only be warranted if the character is suspected to have this kind of capability. Still, assuming the character wins the opposed roll vs ilusion, he shouldn't have any trouble seeing it coming.
Refer to Yerameyahu's comment on page 2 of this thread. The maximum cumulative penalty lies in the -20 area. If you have a dicepool over 35, you're on average going to be able to see these things by RAW.

It's a feat that isn't humanly possible, and even mentioning it in a realistic context deserves a faceslap, but this isn't realism. We're talking the exact line of where man meats magic and machine, and what things are (in)humanly possible, within the context of the given system.

[onlyghostdancesw...]

Only problem with that is the target really doesnt get a chance to see it it until its way too late (even if you use my optional rule of edge as a passive dodge mechanic).

The thing would look like this:

Target walks into the open: No Combat

Sniper Takes shot 1: (which we could rule as his first action before the surprise test is rolled)

Surprise test: Both sides roll, with the super (aka 40+) perceptive person probably not being surprised from a mechanics pov)

The real questions is when the surprise test occurs: does it occur as the round leaves the barrel? or does it occur when the first evidence of sucky event X occurs (aka when there is a game outcome from the action)?

If its when the round leaves then that is quite possible that the Perceptive person does see it (though if they spent that much on munchkinizing their dp I strongly doubt they will be able to go before the Sniper gets his 1st IP in full combat). If the sniper goes higher in the IPs then he can shoot AGAIN, as well as the bullet arriving at target before the player can do crap (though ofc the player can declare full dodge since he was aware of the round (ie he just caught it a bit late lol)). If the target doesnt fully dodge then hes pretty SOL (and keep in mind this is ONLY if the person being shot is the preceptive one, if its another mook on the team they are default SOL).


However if the surprise roll occurs when sucking chest wound X appears in PC Y... then thats a whole boatload of not cool but perfectly reasonable gameplay.

[onlyghostdancesw...]

hehe was just thinking, this REALLY starts to suck for targetted characters who are hit by something or someone capable of MRSI.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) Note to self... the drone firing from 1km away with chameleon and automatic feed MGL.... scary plot devi... err tac nuke.

[Rasumichin]

The point is that not every sniper is GodsHammer. If the GM is resorting to a Thor shot, it would be better to simply talk to the player instead.

There are other reasons than GM fiat for a Thor shot.
It's part of the game world, after all, of course there's plausible reasons why it could happen.
It's use has been threatened before (see Operation Reciprocity), and after the nuke in Chicago, we know that corps do not hesitate to use their weapons of mass destruction if they see an urgent need to.

Now, it's unlikely that the players pose or are faced with a problem that is roughly equal to the Bug City incident, but it's not as if this had never happened before in some campaigns.
Same could be said for a hacker, TM or AI taking over an Aesir sattelite, something similar to the scenario in

[ Spoiler ]

System Failure.

BTW, a Thor shot takes several minutes to reach it's destination.
I'm sure there's a way to spot a giant tungsten rod falling from the sky in time and maybe even to get out of the instakill blast range 100 meters around ground zero, and into the zone where you "only" have to resist a damage of 20P.
Maneuvarability of the projectile seems fairly limited on the last mile.
This is a weapon intended to annihilate entire city blocks, not to take out individual metahuman targets.

My point was that if your GM is throwing an invisible, concealed, chameleon-coated sniper with 16 dice in infiltration at you, he doesn't want to negotiate and he doesn't want you to survive. He's either just killing you off, or he's knocking you out for some kind of forced scene.

I have to disagree even more on this point.
It's completely in order to assume that megacorps and some governments have agents with DPs like that.
It's equally conceivable that a high-powered team could make them believe sending out such forces could be necessary.
I wouldn't throw them at the team unless they would pose a grave threat to national security or vital corporate interests in the campaign, but if it would happen, it wouldn't be to dick around and railroad them, but as an appropriate ingame consequence of particularly drastic actions (which are, in theory, always fine with me, there's always been the option of escalating things to outright war in SR).
If the players would survive that (and you don't need 40 dice in Perception to do so, depending on which sense you use, much less could be sufficient), i'd have no problem with it, either.

I'm not saying SR4 works best when the game deals with military-grade threats.
One or two levels below that actually works better.
But a group willing to do so can pull this off, and there's sourcebooks out for nearly every edition that support such an approach at least for one-shots or the finales of long-running campaigns.