Can the spell control thought effect spirits?, What about critters? Options

[Mardegun]

My first thought is that control thoughts doesn't work against spirits, but what about when they are materialized? On the other hand I am pretty sure I would allow control thoughts to effect critters, paranormal or otherwise.

Do you guys think it would be possible to create a control spirits thoughts spell?

Here is another question, can someone effected by control thoughts be made to accept a spell that requires voluntary targets? For example, what about using mink link on someone who thoughts are controlled? This combo would allow the mage to control the person from a distance, but still have the advantage being present when the target resists

[Backgammon]

Isn't there a control animal spell?

As for spirits, I vote a definitive no. They don't have minds to control. Although it could be argued that a mana spell affects mana creatures, I just think spirits are fundamentally different and cannot be mind controlled. That's my opinion, anyway.

Using control to make voluntary: touchy... I'd go with no if the victim would normally resist the spell. If he's involuntary, but doesn't really care, then maybe.

[Neon Tiger]

I'd say yes to making someone a willing target for spells with Control Thoughts.

I wish not to add another thread to boards, so I'll also ask about the Control type spells. Could you use Control Thoughts/Actions on someone and then make them kill themselves? Slitting wrists or shooting themselves to head with a pistol?

And does someone who is being controlled by Control Actions use their own skills or the casters skills?

[A Clockwork Lime]

Of course Control Thoughts would work on a spirit. They've been given a mind and the ability to think by their conjurer, so it can be manipulated as well as any other aspect of a spirit can. The only problem is that it would only work on the plane that the spell was cast, so if you use it on a materialized spirit, it will only control them for as long as you keep them materialized. The moment they go astral, poof goes the spell.

[Zazen]

[A Clockwork Lime]

[Zazen]

That's not what it says at all, but I have no desire to drag out this old debate.

Mardegun, just keep in mind that there are several viewpoints to choose from. Not everyone agrees on the finer points of magic.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Uhm, okay. Whatever.

[Zazen]

Welcome back, btw :P

[Mardegun]

Could a mage use control thoughts to have someone kill themselves? why not? The person would get to resist, but in the end I doubt they would have any chance.

[edit] Zazen, thanks. It looks like people opinion really do vary on this subject. [/edit]

[Sunday_Gamer]

Ok I'll bite and make your hair go grey... you know that "old debate" you don't wanna drag back out? I'm intrigued!!

Wanna cast a spell on someone in the physical world, you need to be in the physical world as well. Wanna cast a spell on something astral, you need to be astral.

Where's the confusion?

Kong

[spotlite]

I think there's something in the official FAQ about it affecting critters fine. I think it would definately work on spirits, and as its a mana spell I think it would follow them to astral space just like any other sustained spell goes with an astrally projecting mage, whether he cast it himself or not. I'll check the spell targetting rules but I get the feeling I don't wanna go there.

I think you could command them to accept a spell as well, no trouble. That's how the Queen Bug spirits get willing volunteers - they use compulsion to make them want it (sorry, that's a bit of 1st and 2nd ed creeping in there. Voluntary subjects usually resulted in Good Merges, which is why they had the whole cult thing going on, the victims wanted it. I digress).

I beleive the subject of your last question is actually covered in the spell description. Is it something the subject would be strongly opposed to? Then they get another resistance check at that point, I think.

[Herald of Verjig...]

If you need line of sight, and the target goes fully astral, you need to be astrally percieving before that happens or the spell link is broken.

[spotlite]

only for the actual casting, surely? Nowhere under spell sustaining does it say you have to maintain line of sight. I suspect this is what the 'old debate' was. It doesn't mention this specific circumstance and I don't think there's a definitive answer. I'm going to agree to disagree as well.

[Dax]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Spells aren't dual-natured or capable of astrally projecting or materializing. Sustained or not, a spell cast on the material world only affects the material world, while a spell cast on the astral plane only affects the astral plane. I don't know of anything in the rules that either suggests otherwise or demonstrates anything to the contrary. Even dual-natured characters existing simultaneously on both planes have to choose one plane or the other when casting a spell.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Sunday_Gamer]

Gotta say, I'm with Clockwork here... where is the confusion?

Kong

[Herald of Verjig...]

There is some related to the spell "mana static" according to some gamers.

[Lilt]

Yes, I'd say that control thoughts can affect spirits. If one combat spell can affect both spirits and humans then why not control manipulations?

This has come-up in the past in my games, and I said it did work. I did, however, also rule that the spirit's master could become aware through the magical bond (given a successful perception test against an arbitrary target number) but that's another matter entierly.

[Mardegun]

[Sunday_Gamer]

Well for starters: Astral barriers are NOT dual. You cannot cast it in physical space as it has no effect. To quote p 198 of the main book, last paragraph of the spell description:

Astral barrier functions the same as Physical barrier, except on the astral plane. Astral barrier is not a dual barrier and does not work on the physical plane.


Mana static creates a background count and is therefore the exception that proves the rule. =) Background counts have their own rules and the spell creates a background count. It is as far as I know, the ONLY spell that is cast on the physical plane and has it's effects felt in astral space.

Other spells have their own problems. Consider Astral armor or astral barrier. No provisions were made for the fact that since they can only be cast in astral space, their drain is effectively physical unless one is dual, since as we know, all spells cast while projecting have physical drain. So the best bet is to use The Sight and cast those spells, allowing you the luxury of standard drain.

So what else is confusing? Hit me!

Kong

[toturi]

[Lilt]

I don't think mindlink would really allow the target to be mage to be 'present'... I'm sure CT could be used to make someone accept a spell, but allowing the mage to be effectively 'present' depends how I'm feeling that day.

[Darkest Angel]

Spell wall and spell shield, there's your other spells that have an effect on both planes at once.

The way I see it is, it's magic, if it's meant to have effect 'a' it has effect 'a', doesn't matter what plane your on. If you cast control thoughts on a spirit, you keep it cast as long as you sustain it, same as any other spell. LOS never comes into it with other sustained spells, why should it make a difference between planes? Especially when you can cast a spell into a sustaining focus, project yourself and take said focus and spell with you, the only stipulation on whether the spell had an effect or not would depend on whether it was a mana or physical spell, physical spells by their nature don't have any effect on the astral. NB no effect is not the same as cannot be cast/sustained or otherwise exist.

As for control thoughts being used to induce suicide/put the target in danger: The rules are in the book, you get another resistance test iirc it's easier if the target is out of LOS.