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> I made a great campaign, and then I lost my players :(
Smokeskin
post Jan 31 2011, 11:40 AM
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I had this great campaign lined up.

Elections for city council are coming up, and the mayor plans to run with a law and order theme, specifically clearing up the Barrens. He's working up the deal with Lone Star, who's looking for new ventures after they lost most of Seattle to KE.

KE gets wind of it and runs a false flag terrorist operation on a Council building, holding several hostages. They haven't announced their claims to the public yet, only the negotiator, but they will pretend to be from the Barrens Acknowledgement Movement, demanding better living conditions and a real effort to adress crime in the Barrens, forcing the mayor to abandon his plan of giving the contract to Lone Star (he can't be seen to give in to demands).

This is where the runners come in. The head of KE's DEA wants crime to be forced out of the Barrens (LS turf), because that will mean increased drug trade in the rest of the city, equalling a larger department and more power to him. He got wind of the terrorist demands and realized the implications, and along with a city council man hires the runners to sneak in past the SWAT team (with some inside KE help), take out the terrorists before they make their claims public, and extract a terrorist for interrogation.

When the runners get out with their prisoner, they find out they've kidnapped a cop (and killed several others). KE figured that with KE terrorists and KE SWAT, it was zero exposure risk operation, and better keep it in house that involve outsiders.

Drama galore. KE wants the runners bad, not just for killing cops but they know way, way too much - but the head of KE DEA can't risk them captured and spilling their guts about his role (he might help, but he'd be happy with them dead too). KE is trying to thwart LS's Barrens contract, but factions within have another agenda. LS is gearing up for their own campaign to support the mayor's election and their own Barrens contract, which includes disinformation campaigns, instigating major riots, runnning interception on KE, and maybe even a shedim outbreak. The city council has the mayor's side, the opposition, and beyond political motivations many are in the pockets of either KE or LS. Civil rights movements, genuine and false flag, and criminal organizations have their own opinions on the matter. Maybe there's even som righteous people that actually care about the conditions in the Barrens to be found somewhere.

In the middle of this major conflict about a huge security contract we find the runners. I even have a vague outline (detailed planning many runs down don't work for me) of the runners calling in a Metroplex Guard bombing run.

And then I lose my players. Sigh.

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Fatum
post Jan 31 2011, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jan 31 2011, 02:40 PM) *
KE gets wind of it and runs a false flag terrorist operation on a Council building, holding several hostages.

My god. *facepalms*
There's a reason why runners exist in the setting.
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deek
post Jan 31 2011, 02:15 PM
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Sorry for your luck. It happens and hopefully you can find another group so your work isn't wasted.
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Smokeskin
post Jan 31 2011, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Jan 31 2011, 02:32 PM) *
My god. *facepalms*
There's a reason why runners exist in the setting.


In my setting:

a) even runners aren't stupid enough to accept this job: "You need to take over a city council building, hold hostages, let yourself be surrounded by SWAT units and hope you're not assaulted before you manage to release this statement to the press - in fact we'd really like you to drag it out so the incident gets a lot of exposure and really puts the pressure on the mayor. And good luck in getting out." And KE can't very well say that they're behind the op and their SWAT units will cooperate without blowing the whole deniability part of why runners exist, can they? Barricading yourself with hostages and making insane demands are for fanatics and the desperate, it isn't a job you take on for money. How would you get some runners to accept a mission like this? I don't run it pink mohawk enough for them to stand much of a chance of getting out of something like that. My main problem with designing this first mission was how to convince the players that it wasn't a suicide mission, and unlike the false flag terrorists I could present them with proof of SWAT cooperation going in.

b) KE thinks that an operation with KE agents on the inside facing KE SWAT on the inside is much tighter and controlled than one where they also have to deal with potential security breaches and mistakes from shadowrunners.

c) corps don't outsource all black ops, which is canon btw - check out Corporate Guide pg. 227-231 on the type of ops they carry out.
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Doc Byte
post Jan 31 2011, 03:57 PM
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Actually that's a brilliant plan. Your fake terrorists can simply dump their disguise and walk out of the building when you send in the colleagues from outside. They do all look the same. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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deek
post Jan 31 2011, 04:01 PM
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Regarding your comments in a), actually, this sounds like a run that could be a lot of fun for my players, and I don't consider them stupid. I've watched enough movies to "know" that if hostages are being held, then a negotiator comes on the scene and SWAT won't act until that single point of contact gives them the Go. And a single point of contact is easily within the capability of a runner team, or the Johnson setting this all up, to be on the take and prolong things.

This would be a great job to take for some money, especially up front, because it would seem things would be pretty easy for the runners to stage. That false sense of security is also sweet and I'd think the only thing the runners would have to worry about is escape. I can think of about 5 different ways to do it off the top of my head and my players would easily triple the number of ideas that could work.
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Fatum
post Jan 31 2011, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jan 31 2011, 06:36 PM) *
a) even runners aren't stupid enough to accept this job: "You need to take over a city council building, hold hostages, let yourself be surrounded by SWAT units and hope you're not assaulted before you manage to release this statement to the press - in fact we'd really like you to drag it out so the incident gets a lot of exposure and really puts the pressure on the mayor. And good luck in getting out." And KE can't very well say that they're behind the op and their SWAT units will cooperate without blowing the whole deniability part of why runners exist, can they? Barricading yourself with hostages and making insane demands are for fanatics and the desperate, it isn't a job you take on for money. How would you get some runners to accept a mission like this? I don't run it pink mohawk enough for them to stand much of a chance of getting out of something like that. My main problem with designing this first mission was how to convince the players that it wasn't a suicide mission, and unlike the false flag terrorists I could present them with proof of SWAT cooperation going in.

So, why exactly would corp drones accept that job?
Runners are by default criminals, so yeah, they accept jobs involving blatant crime, and hope that all those promises of SWAT cooperation are in fact real - informing runners that SWAT will cooperate does only grant them information that they are in fact working for KE. So what, how is that ruining deniability - still, no proofs, no nothing.
Now, KE employees? Those are generally law-abiding citizens, who are risking their life and good reputation if there just a single news bot in the wrong place.
Even from the point of view of the one to plan that - should something go wrong, you can always order the runners shot and deny any involvement with them. With your own employees, that is not an option.
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Smokeskin
post Jan 31 2011, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Jan 31 2011, 05:01 PM) *
This would be a great job to take for some money, especially up front, because it would seem things would be pretty easy for the runners to stage. That false sense of security is also sweet and I'd think the only thing the runners would have to worry about is escape. I can think of about 5 different ways to do it off the top of my head and my players would easily triple the number of ideas that could work.


The only way I can see to pull it off is an inside guy (which you mention too) or a secret tunnel. Maybe some rock solid cover giving them legitimate reasons to be there so they can claim they were hostages, but everyone coming out is contained and stories are checked, so a fake ID and a hacked employee database won't cut it. I'd really like to hear your other ideas.

My games aren't pink mohawk enough to pull something like that off unless you something really good. SWAT is the special forces of police enforcement, they're very good and very motivated, the SWAT team playbook contains the condensed experience from 100 years of incidents, and they don't do much other than train and deploy. There's a very high risk that any clever idea the runners come up with, they've thought of it too and even countered something like it in training several times. And you're not just dealing with a dozen SWAT guys, there's also aerial surveillance from drones (both police and media), Matrix surveillance, a few patrolling spirits, and 50 regular cops to get around. That's some rough opposition unless you're cutting the players some slack.
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Smokeskin
post Jan 31 2011, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Jan 31 2011, 05:16 PM) *
So, why exactly would corp drones accept that job?
Runners are by default criminals, so yeah, they accept jobs involving blatant crime, and hope that all those promises of SWAT cooperation are in fact real - informing runners that SWAT will cooperate does only grant them information that they are in fact working for KE. So what, how is that ruining deniability - still, no proofs, no nothing.
Now, KE employees? Those are generally law-abiding citizens, who are risking their life and good reputation if there just a single news bot in the wrong place.
Even from the point of view of the one to plan that - should something go wrong, you can always order the runners shot and deny any involvement with them. With your own employees, that is not an option.


I was going with a mix of some ambitious types doing it for the recognition of the higher-ups and some crooked cops that got caught and were offered to get off the hook by doing this.

As for the other stuff, you seem very keen on a "corps would never use their own people for anything" principle and only look at arguments that confirm that. There are arguments that go the other way too, like if things go wrong, the "terrorists" cops can just walk out, or the cooked cops could get shot and claimed to be acting out of grudge against the city, or that there's less chance for it to go wrong in the first place if you don't have to deal with runners. And maybe runners won't have proof afterwards, but maybe they recorded the part where SWAT lets them in and out of the cordon, or they hacked and ID'd the Johnson.

We can argue back and forth about the pros and cons of outsourcing or not, but other than the problem of getting someone to take on the job, I don't really see it as clear cut in either direction. I know, it doesn't become much of an internet debate if you don't *facepalm* at the other guys ideas, but that's my take on it.
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deek
post Jan 31 2011, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jan 31 2011, 01:58 PM) *
The only way I can see to pull it off is an inside guy (which you mention too) or a secret tunnel. Maybe some rock solid cover giving them legitimate reasons to be there so they can claim they were hostages, but everyone coming out is contained and stories are checked, so a fake ID and a hacked employee database won't cut it. I'd really like to hear your other ideas.

My games aren't pink mohawk enough to pull something like that off unless you something really good. SWAT is the special forces of police enforcement, they're very good and very motivated, the SWAT team playbook contains the condensed experience from 100 years of incidents, and they don't do much other than train and deploy. There's a very high risk that any clever idea the runners come up with, they've thought of it too and even countered something like it in training several times. And you're not just dealing with a dozen SWAT guys, there's also aerial surveillance from drones (both police and media), Matrix surveillance, a few patrolling spirits, and 50 regular cops to get around. That's some rough opposition unless you're cutting the players some slack.

I guess I was never thinking this was a pink mohawk type of run. Ideas that I had, off the top of my head:

1) Recruit some bums/chipheads to double as the terrorists so runners can be freed with hostages. Kill THEM instead, then walk away free.
2) A coordinated distraction and then bolt the other way, under cover/concealment, etc, is going to be possible. Runners can be invisible when they want to.
3) Get caught and on the way to jail, make a break, either preplanned, or from inside the paddywagon. Once they are caught and stripped of gear, there won't be nearly as much opposition.
4) Probably the most straightforward, negotiate and exit with hostages to less covered area. Then make an escape from there.
5) Brute force out the least guarded exit.

Obviously, I'd need to see blueprints of the city council building to really fine tune some of these plans, but with some time, it wouldn't be too crazy to think the runners could backdoor into the security system and or create their own physical exit before the hostage situation started. I'd also like to point out, just because you throw the book at them with opposition, doesn't mean a team needs to kill everyone to get out.

Get a typical good runner team together, that are specialized in the right areas, and they are going to be able to get out unless you are the GM that wants to win. When runners have time to plan, they are going to be able to come up with some pretty good ideas...
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Doc Chase
post Jan 31 2011, 08:54 PM
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If your team is good enough, just take over the building's security, sleep gas and isolate the people inside, then have the team evac while making demands only over the Matrix from a secure location. They can't shoot you if you aren't in the building. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

There's plenty of ways to take hostages without being on site. Booby-trap the ever-loving hell out of a maintenance room, plant something that looks like an amazing nerve gas bomb, and replay your demands that way. Take over building security from range, lock down the exits, and say any attempts to leave will result in the detonation of the weapon. Evac your target before the fix is in, and everyone is locked inside while you make your getaway and the cops are scrambling to get a bomb disposal team in.
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Smokeskin
post Jan 31 2011, 09:02 PM
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That's brilliant Doc C (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

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deek
post Jan 31 2011, 09:29 PM
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See? Players will come up with ingenious angles.
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Fatum
post Jan 31 2011, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jan 31 2011, 10:30 PM) *
As for the other stuff, you seem very keen on a "corps would never use their own people for anything" principle and only look at arguments that confirm that.
Corps would never, absolutely never goddamn ever use their people in a situation where they're not just likely to get caught, but where the difference between getting caught and not is one cam in the wrong place.
And yeah, I am pretty keen on defending the principle the whole game system's logic is built around.

QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jan 31 2011, 10:30 PM) *
There are arguments that go the other way too, like if things go wrong, the "terrorists" cops can just walk out,
Uh, what? Are they there with uniforms and badges, or what? If not, how can they walk out of a hostage situation and not be detained? If yes, then... I... I just don't know.

QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jan 31 2011, 10:30 PM) *
or the cooked cops could get shot and claimed to be acting out of grudge against the city,
What about "some ambitious types"? And anyway, how is the one to plan that running killing his own employees through with his superiors?

QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jan 31 2011, 10:30 PM) *
And maybe runners won't have proof afterwards, but maybe they recorded the part where SWAT lets them in and out of the cordon, or they hacked and ID'd the Johnson.
Or maybe SWAT captures them alive, drags them off to Ares grounds to be questioned, and during a "sudden attack" they are lost? Or maybe they are "lost" during the transfer to the prison? Or "broken" out of it? Or, hell, killed in prison - anyway, using runners removes a whole lot of problems. And after all, employees are no less likely to blackmail you than runners, especially if we're talking crooked cops here.

QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jan 31 2011, 10:30 PM) *
We can argue back and forth about the pros and cons of outsourcing or not, but other than the problem of getting someone to take on the job, I don't really see it as clear cut in either direction. I know, it doesn't become much of an internet debate if you don't *facepalm* at the other guys ideas, but that's my take on it.
Well, if you don't consider going against the whole system's logic facepalm-worthy, I don't know what would you.
Make no mistake - I like the plot hook with using the hostage situation to make the politicos to back down from their plans, and that whole deal makes for some great possible ways of further development.
But for something labeled as "great", it just contains a flaw too obvious. At least at my table, it'd cause a full-scale shitstorm coming from broken verisimilitude.
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Doc Chase
post Jan 31 2011, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jan 31 2011, 09:02 PM) *
That's brilliant Doc C (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Psh. It's just a product of me watching way too much TV, and thinking, "What would be a great twist scene right here?"

In the end, it's a camera shot of the SWAT team breaching the final room to find a bunch of people asleep on the floor, and a commlink on a desk with a holographic alarm clock display, counting down to three...two...one...and it rings, and people start waking up.
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Tiralee
post Feb 1 2011, 12:03 AM
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Doc C - lovely plan.

I'd adjust/refine/steal the idea by having the "Bomb" located in the bowels of the building with enough tell-tales to let the opposing force know that if the power/water/matrix is shut off, bad things happen.

1: Operate "bomb" remotely, but have a slotted-in chipster riding a long wire and holding a fake dead-mans' switch.
2: Start wetworking the Swat teams. (Magic, Matrix and Meat, in that order) The last part can be Spectacular with drones, etc.
3: Have your tame decker hack the local news net for the breaking story, with "live feed" from the hostage crisis
4: Switch your chiphead from "I'm gonna do it man, I'm gonna do it!" to, "Oh ladies, yeah, you know that you want, the pleasure machine is here..." (If they're gonna die, may as well give them a thrill on the way out)
5: Pan back on what's left of the Swat, and have the KE Logo/themesong and soundbite play, with "Keeping this city safe"
6: Detonate bomb with streamers and shaving cream.
7: With a remotely-triggered single-use AGTM, take out the mayor.
8: Sell the footage.
9: Profit.

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Doc Chase
post Feb 1 2011, 03:31 AM
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Ooooh. I like, but here's what I'd tweak:

1. The bomb is going to go off no matter what. You pull the wire, you disable the timer feed, it runs out - whatever. It goes off.
2. The bomb is filled with confetti and nitrous oxide. Also, it plays Billy Joel - "We Didn't Start The Fire."

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warrior_allanon
post Feb 1 2011, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Jan 31 2011, 05:32 PM) *
Corps would never, absolutely never goddamn ever use their people in a situation where they're not just likely to get caught, but where the difference between getting caught and not is one cam in the wrong place.
And yeah, I am pretty keen on defending the principle the whole game system's logic is built around.

Uh, what? Are they there with uniforms and badges, or what? If not, how can they walk out of a hostage situation and not be detained? If yes, then... I... I just don't know.

What about "some ambitious types"? And anyway, how is the one to plan that running killing his own employees through with his superiors?

Or maybe SWAT captures them alive, drags them off to Ares grounds to be questioned, and during a "sudden attack" they are lost? Or maybe they are "lost" during the transfer to the prison? Or "broken" out of it? Or, hell, killed in prison - anyway, using runners removes a whole lot of problems. And after all, employees are no less likely to blackmail you than runners, especially if we're talking crooked cops here.

Well, if you don't consider going against the whole system's logic facepalm-worthy, I don't know what would you.
Make no mistake - I like the plot hook with using the hostage situation to make the politicos to back down from their plans, and that whole deal makes for some great possible ways of further development.
But for something labeled as "great", it just contains a flaw too obvious. At least at my table, it'd cause a full-scale shitstorm coming from broken verisimilitude.


Fatum, he's not going against the logic of it, he's using the "Oceans 11" gambit to a degree, part of the idea is that most if not all of the SWAT team is in on it and as they "breach" the "terrorists" become part of the SWAT team. Been there, dealt with it. Now, while your right, using runners to pull this off would be to a degree less problematical, remember, when your not staging something there are a lot more holes you have to deal with and a lot of problems that you didnt anticipate pop up.
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Smokeskin
post Feb 3 2011, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Jan 31 2011, 08:54 PM) *
Get a typical good runner team together, that are specialized in the right areas, and they are going to be able to get out unless you are the GM that wants to win. When runners have time to plan, they are going to be able to come up with some pretty good ideas...


And if they're going up against equivalently skilled opposition, that opposition will have some great ideas of their own. And when the opposition outnumber and outresource the runners, it begins to look really bad for the runners.

The runners typically have advantages of initiative and surprise. If they throw those away and try get into a protracted confrontation with superior forces, they're asking to lose.

Do I give the runners a chance to get out before they get cornered? Sure - I have no interest in killing the players. Do I let them off easy if they seek confrontation in the face of overwhelming odds? No - I have no interest in running a hollywood action movie table.

I look at it like a multiplayer game. Even if you can come up with a great idea, something that looks very powerful, then you're facing another opponent trying to do the same, and if your opponent is equally skilled, you're still only at half chance even with your great strategy. If you go up against 2 or 3 of such opponents at the same time, you're absolutely hosed. The morale is, even fair fights gives you shitty odds.

I'm not going to play a full scale anti-terrorist operation like some braindead mook show. There's going to be UWB radar and clairvoyance spells, spirits of man materializing and dropping stunballs, spirit-concealed assault teams with an invisible point man, snipers, fibre optic wires snaking around and through drilled holes with a mage at the other end.

That's the beauty of Doc Chase's plan - it would let the runners achieve the objective without having to face superior opposition. That's smart. Getting surrounded and outnumbered and giving away the initiative, that's not smart.
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onlyghostdancesw...
post Feb 4 2011, 03:52 AM
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Exactly what smoke said, Special Forces or Spec ops teams (which SWAT count as, though on the slightly lower end) are terrifying because of their tactics and dedication, there are people that are stronger than some spec ops members, but the ops have the advantage in teams tactics etc. Its a truism of all warfare conflict etc: if the fight is fair then someone somewhere fucked up.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 4 2011, 04:01 AM
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I thought it *was* a Hollywood (are there other kinds) action movie game. Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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deek
post Feb 4 2011, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Feb 3 2011, 05:03 PM) *
And if they're going up against equivalently skilled opposition, that opposition will have some great ideas of their own. And when the opposition outnumber and outresource the runners, it begins to look really bad for the runners.

The runners typically have advantages of initiative and surprise. If they throw those away and try get into a protracted confrontation with superior forces, they're asking to lose.

Do I give the runners a chance to get out before they get cornered? Sure - I have no interest in killing the players. Do I let them off easy if they seek confrontation in the face of overwhelming odds? No - I have no interest in running a hollywood action movie table.

I look at it like a multiplayer game. Even if you can come up with a great idea, something that looks very powerful, then you're facing another opponent trying to do the same, and if your opponent is equally skilled, you're still only at half chance even with your great strategy. If you go up against 2 or 3 of such opponents at the same time, you're absolutely hosed. The morale is, even fair fights gives you shitty odds.

I'm not going to play a full scale anti-terrorist operation like some braindead mook show. There's going to be UWB radar and clairvoyance spells, spirits of man materializing and dropping stunballs, spirit-concealed assault teams with an invisible point man, snipers, fibre optic wires snaking around and through drilled holes with a mage at the other end.

That's the beauty of Doc Chase's plan - it would let the runners achieve the objective without having to face superior opposition. That's smart. Getting surrounded and outnumbered and giving away the initiative, that's not smart.

I don't know if its just me, but you seem to think that if your runner team is up against a superior force, then the only way out is through brute force. Doc has a great idea (as you agreed) to avoid putting the runner team in danger. I can see several variations of "remote" terrorism working as well. The team can also do variations of "Oceans 11" and get out with the hostages. And I still think its quite valid to set this up and have them captured and then later escape from a vehicle taking them to jail or from inside the jail itself. There are a lot of options there to make this work.

And I agree with you, that a SWAT team has advantage if the runner team decides to engage them toe-to-toe. They have more resources and world-class tactics, no argument there. But you seem to think that a team will rather engage a superior opponent rather than plan out a way not to.

The one thing that's special about SR is the legwork. Unlike a multiplayer game, a good runner team will know a lot more before going up against an opponent. And some teams can even pull of controlling just how and when they will engage said opponent. I agree, fair fights give shitty odds, but if the team is able to plan before getting on-site, who says it has to be a fair fight?

I will admit that I am biased, though. Like Yerameyahu, I do like my players to be showcased in my games. Its more fun for them and more fun for me. I feel like if I am doing my job as a GM, the only way characters end up dead is if they are obviously stupid. Otherwise, there's always a way out...
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Doc Chase
post Feb 4 2011, 02:43 PM
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I had a thought of doing a two-team 'Ocean's Whatever' where one team takes the building, and the second team spoofs their ID as the SWAT responders who promptly go cowboy against the negotiator's orders, charge the building, make a bunch of pretty lights and flashes, and arrest the do-badders and truck them away in their paddy-wagon.

That has a few too many risks because it's so many people. The best plans tend to be smaller in scope because there's less moving pieces to break. One can make a wonderous Xanatos Gambit based on the response of the counterterror teams (I.E. Die Hard), but if the responders are your Johnson then it's clearly a setup in hindsight, and may very appear as one to the runners in the first place.

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Smokeskin
post Feb 4 2011, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Feb 4 2011, 02:54 PM) *
I don't know if its just me, but you seem to think that if your runner team is up against a superior force, then the only way out is through brute force.


There is a multitude of options to try, but you have to consider that the SWAT guys are doing their best to contain them and will attempt to assault them before they can kill hostages or escape.

Let me put it this way. You decide to run a SWAT campaign. Your players are team leaders, they get to make their own char plus two subordinates. Each is built with 400BPs, but the gear cap is 20BPs (the police are stingy that way). On the plus side, they get access to the police armory though, which includes lots of nifty toys like citymasters, helicopters, drones, and they can of course get assistance from other cops, they have access to all sorts of surveillance networks and city plans, they can generally expect to have Matrix override codes for everything, etc. Play 10 sessions with them, so they get a little experience, pick up some nasty tricks, and some Karma to develop their characters further.

We all agree that many players are very creative - they'll come up with some innovative ways to get eyes on the bad guys, to avoid getting tricked by misconception, to make sure the bad guys don't escape through some tunnel, to quickly and stealthily incapacitate hostage takers before they do any harm. They'll know that sometimes bad guys hack the city building registry and edit out the tunnel escapes. They'll know not to let any hostages go until everyone has been debriefed and stories and backgrounds cross-checked. They'll let bad guys think they're escaping but really just be luring them into a kill zone. They'll be as devious and underhand as shadowrunners.

That's the opposition. Try having that team (larger, more specialized, full police resources) go against a standard runner team. If I were the runners, I'd not let myself be surrounded by the SWAT team. I would not feel confident I could slip out under their radar. Nastiness, pure nastiness.

QUOTE (deek @ Feb 4 2011, 02:54 PM) *
The one thing that's special about SR is the legwork. Unlike a multiplayer game, a good runner team will know a lot more before going up against an opponent. And some teams can even pull of controlling just how and when they will engage said opponent. I agree, fair fights give shitty odds, but if the team is able to plan before getting on-site, who says it has to be a fair fight?


I think we agree on most things, except for very few things, like the possibility of escape when under SWAT siege.

QUOTE (deek @ Feb 4 2011, 02:54 PM) *
I will admit that I am biased, though. Like Yerameyahu, I do like my players to be showcased in my games. Its more fun for them and more fun for me. I feel like if I am doing my job as a GM, the only way characters end up dead is if they are obviously stupid. Otherwise, there's always a way out...


We all sacrifice realism, we all cheat, to keep the players alive, don't we? I throw them some extra intel, let the bad guys be a bit too obvious in their approach, to tip them off. It sounds like your table enjoys a bit more action and preferably against the big guns, and so you tone down the deviousness of the opposition instead. Maybe your game is more 24, while mine is more Burn Notice.
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deek
post Feb 4 2011, 05:09 PM
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But what if the runner teams accepts they are going to get caught in this scenario? Is SWAT going to escort the runners's paddywagon? I wouldn't think so. I think they would get them stripped, secured and sent on their way. So, can the driver be corrupt or bribed? Possibly. Those are weak points I would be looking at. I could think of a handful of ways to get them out of lockup as well, either before, during or after transit.

Isn't the mission still a success if they don't get out right away? Once out on the street, runners have a multitude of ways to disappear...and spend their money.

Maybe we are debating two different things. I'm still on the side that this mission isn't suicide and most runner teams would take it. You don't think any sane team would take it because they would be good as dead.
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