Type-O and Cultured Bioware, Does it apply? Options

[Eratosthenes]

Does the benefit for having a Type-O system (bioware = delta grade, i.e. 50% essence, harder to detect) apply for cultured bioware.

My interpretation is that it does not, as the description of the quality states it's for "off-the-rack, basic bioware", and basic bioware is sort of a category of bioware. Also, cultured bioware has to be grown specifically for that customer.

On a related note, can you have different grades of cultured bioware? Can those Synaptic Accelerators be delta-grade?

[Ascalaphus]

This has been discussed ad nauseum in several threads. The orthodox view is that Type-O applies only to Standard (and Alpha) Basic Bioware, not Cultured Bioware of any grade.

Cultured Bioware has grades just like Basic Bioware according to the developers for Augmentation.

[StealthSigma]

This has been discussed ad nauseum in several threads. The orthodox view is that Type-O applies only to Standard (and Alpha) Basic Bioware, not Cultured Bioware of any grade.

Cultured Bioware has grades just like Basic Bioware according to the developers for Augmentation.

Basic bioware is not a term that is ever used, hence the issue.

The Type-O quality had inadvertently introduce a "rejection" mechanic for bioware by utilizing essence as a container for it. That is all Type-O does. It says your body isn't as likely to reject bioware. It makes essence viewed as a number of "how much crap they need to do to make sure your body doesn't reject the bioware". Which is also reflected in price.

Now look at cultured bioware. It's all grown from your DNA. So what the heck are they doing that would warrant higher prices for alpha/beta/delta? They are probably doing more tweaks to make the augment as compatible to your body as possible. In that case, Type-O should apply to cultured bioware.

[Saint Sithney]

The implant vs. genetic growth argument doesn't really hold up. Bone density augs aren't implants, so why would there be decreased rejection? If you look at it not as a matter of logic, but as a matter of game balance, I like the following.

If you don't expect the game/character to last too long, Type-O should effect Cultured Bioware.
If you expect that character to stick around for 100+ karma or a quarter million yen, then it should not.

It's a quality whose usefulness grows with the character. With enough time it's still useful only discounting bodyware. Without that time, it is entirely not worth it.

[sabs]

I'm still not sure why Bone Density augments, and Muscle toners are not cultured

[Ascalaphus]

Basic bioware is not a term that is ever used, hence the issue.

Actually, it is:

Type O System
Cost: 30 BP
Though exceptionally rare, a few lucky people in the world
have completely non-allergenic “type O” cells, meaning that they
can give organ transplants to just about anyone with little chance of
rejection. While the character cannot accept second-hand bioware
at all, their essential cell line is already cultivated as the generic
standard throughout the world. Off the rack, basic bioware is con-
sidered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body
(i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the
same). Their bodies are also filled with universally transplantable
organs, so maybe they shouldn’t brag too much about this talent.

Now, when we look for a description of what Cultured Bioware means, we turn turn SR4A:

Cultured Bioware
Cultured bioware must be tailor-made for the intended recipient, so it
is more expensive and takes longer to acquire.

"Off the rack, basic" is precisely the opposite of "tailor-made for the intended recipient". And when you look at the tables on that very same page, you'll notice they have a Basic Bioware and a Cultured Bioware table. Augmentation does exactly the same thing. It goes on to explain it again, and in more detail:

BIOWARE GRADES
Like cyberware, bioware is available in varying quality and
availability. The most common off-the-shelf bioware is type O
and is roughly matched to the patient’s size and metatype. By
its nature, neural bioware—aka cultured bioware—must be
matched to the patient’s physiology, particularly his brain and
nervous system. Likewise, higher-quality bioware (alpha, beta) is
tailored more closely to individual biological systems and protein
matched to existing tissues. The highest quality bioware (delta)
is vat-grown from a cellular matrix containing the individual
patient’s own DNA, custom-made just for them.

Cultured Bioware isn't necessarily grown from your own DNA, and therefore is isn't automatically Delta-grade. But it has to be specifically matched to your brain and nervous system, and that isn't covered by Type O.

In short, Basic Bioware is a specific class of bioware, and not the same things as a bioware grade:

Cyberware and Bioware Grades
Under Licence From
Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and del-
taware.

"Standard" does not mean the same as "Basic".

The rule in SR4A p. 313 does not pose an exception for Cultured Bioware, so any of the two classes of Bioware can be had in any of the four grades.

---
This has all been commented on by the developers of Augmentation. The thread is one of many, 32 pages long, but since it's the writers talking, it's the most authoritative. The link posts to the most definite answer to the question, but other arguments are in front and after it. FrankTrollMan and Synner are the writers speaking there.

Here

[Mäx]

Basic bioware is not a term that is ever used, hence the issue.

Yes it is, both the corebook and augmentation have tables listing basic bioware as seperate from cosmetic and cultured bioware.
Only problem is that the listing in the bioware section of aug erraneously uses the term standard bioware instead of basic(but the table in the back uses the correct term)

[Saint Sithney]

Yes it is, both the corebook and augmentation have tables listing basic bioware as seperate from cosmetic and cultured bioware.
Only problem is that the listing in the bioware section of aug erraneously uses the term standard bioware instead of basic(but the table in the back uses the correct term)

You mean like this?

Basic Grade (Cultured Bioware) Medicine (Implant Surgery) + Logic (8, 1 hour)

Basic is also a grade in augmentation.
Off the shelf can mean either 1) standard/regular or 2) unaltered.

There is no absolute reading so it is a GM call.
I make that call based on the expected life of the character/game.

[Yerameyahu]

I'd just like to agree with the first answer (Ascalaphus). Yes, the book is very annoying with its overloading of the 'basic' description and the basic/standard inconsistency, and that's sad. The arguments ('off the rack != Cultured, Basic vs. Cultured, dev word, etc.) are conclusive, though. It's not really up for debate at this point; if you don't like it, just houserule. Done.

I did notice this, though: "bioware = delta grade, i.e. 50% essence, harder to detect". It hardly matters, because bioware is already near-undetectble, but Type-O's purpose is to reduce Essence cost. That's the stated function. While you might go nuts reading into the 'interact with the body' clause, the text definitely states that the mechanical function is Essence cost reduction. This issue comes up (and matters a lot more) when people try to use it to twink Infected, but hey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

I recall that the non-anniversary version of the SR4 book also had the term "basic bioware" in it a couple of times, adding to the confusion.



-k