[X] My Assistant

[PBTHHHHT]

Let me clear this up for you: in general, a person with their gun holstered as standard standing 21' away from someone with a knife is dead before they can get a shot off. Of course, there are variables and it's not locked in stone (quick draw holster, someone practiced in quick drawing their firearm, intervening obstacles, ect.), but generally speaking it's a true statement.

Clearing it up for me? Maybe you should read further up where people are saying he's a dead man if they had a gun. I was clearing up for them that someone within range with a ready weapon will get to them. What you're 'clearing' up for me is generally what is known from what I've recall concerning law enforcement procedures when dealing someone with a bladed weapon. What I was saying was given out as hearsay and yours is about the same unless you give quotes, and yes we can be pulling out quotes and links at this point, but I think we're on the same page.

As hyzmarca as stated, I think the bandit is already wielding the gun in hand in the train robbery, that's an assumption so less then neraph's 21', plus it's rough terrain due to train car aisle... and unless the aisles are clear of debris, some trains I've seen is rather cramped with passenger items often spilling out into the aisle, it's really rough terrain.

[TheOneRonin]

Let me clear this up for you: in general, a person with their gun holstered as standard standing 21' away from someone with a knife is dead before they can get a shot off. Of course, there are variables and it's not locked in stone (quick draw holster, someone practiced in quick drawing their firearm, intervening obstacles, ect.), but generally speaking it's a true statement.

Not correct at all. 21'-rule basically means that a blade-wielding assailant can likely stab you before you manage to draw and fire your weapon once. Most likely, the shooter will not die instantly from the stab/cut. Rather, he will commence to empty his entire magazine/cylinder into the suicidal maniac at VERY close range.. Mr. Knifey will, probably in short order, bleed to death. Mr. Handgun, on the other hand, will have suffered anything from a superficial cut to a mortal wound, depending upon the skill and or determination of Mr. Knifey.

Talk to someone in Law Enforcement. They'll be happy to clear up the distinction for you. For me personally, I'd much rather engage Mr. Knifey from ~50 meters away with something in the neighborhood of 110 - 150 grains, traveling at least 2600 fps.

[D2F]

Not correct at all. 21'-rule basically means that a blade-wielding assailant can likely stab you before you manage to draw and fire your weapon once. Most likely, the shooter will not die instantly from the stab/cut. Rather, he will commence to empty his entire magazine/cylinder into the suicidal maniac at VERY close range.. Mr. Knifey will, probably in short order, bleed to death. Mr. Handgun, on the other hand, will have suffered anything from a superficial cut to a mortal wound, depending upon the skill and or determination of Mr. Knifey.

Talk to someone in Law Enforcement. They'll be happy to clear up the distinction for you. For me personally, I'd much rather engage Mr. Knifey from ~50 meters away with something in the neighborhood of 110 - 150 grains, traveling at least 2600 fps.

Keep in mind, that said assailant will keep stabbing you, while you empty your handgun into him. Gunshot wounds aren't exactly insta-gib, either. It's actually rather rare, that a gunshot wound will kill you outright. So, what you end up with is a guy that has nothing to lose and a major grudge against you, armed with a knife, right in front of your vitals...

[CanadianWolverin...]

Thing is, those shots have this wonderful shock wave to them in your body parts that just will put you in shock like that, when it comes to blades you need to put it in the right spot to do that. These Ghurkas probably know all the right spots, your done, they are moving your aim off and cutting the bio-mechanics that even make it possible for you to pull the trigger. Same can be said of some guys with their pistol/rifle/etc, they just know where to put that bullet and you are done, your body won't even be able to tell your finger to pull the trigger anymore.

[Manunancy]

Though when you're facing a kukri hitting just the right spot loses some importance - the pain and shock from a hit is likely to be just as disabling a bullet. The kukri plays in the same yard as a machete when it comes to cutting things (and peoples) apart.

[Neraph]

Not correct at all. 21'-rule basically means that a blade-wielding assailant can likely stab you before you manage to draw and fire your weapon once. Most likely, the shooter will not die instantly from the stab/cut. Rather, he will commence to empty his entire magazine/cylinder into the suicidal maniac at VERY close range.. Mr. Knifey will, probably in short order, bleed to death. Mr. Handgun, on the other hand, will have suffered anything from a superficial cut to a mortal wound, depending upon the skill and or determination of Mr. Knifey.

Talk to someone in Law Enforcement. They'll be happy to clear up the distinction for you. For me personally, I'd much rather engage Mr. Knifey from ~50 meters away with something in the neighborhood of 110 - 150 grains, traveling at least 2600 fps.

You're also assuming that the person with the knife doesn't secure your firearm that you haven't cleared yet. I mean come on people, combat isn't rock-em, sock-em robots.

I will, however, cede my "dead" statement to "wounded." The concept I had as I was typing was overwritten by the act of me typing.

[nezumi]

I don't know... This is a Ghurka we're talking about. "Dead" (or more reasonably, 'gibbed') seems reasonable. Also, 21 feet should probably read '210 feet' in this situation.

[Tyro]

Check out an old police training video called "surviving edged weapons". I don't have time to track down the full video - IIRC it's over an hour - but the highlights at least are easy to find.

[CanRay]

Check out an old police training video called "surviving edged weapons". I don't have time to track down the full video - IIRC it's over an hour - but the highlights at least are easy to find.

Rule One: Don't let the pointy or edged bit go into your flesh in the first place.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Some police forces are actually training their police officers back up to par on use of their batons and unarmed techniques because of the 21' rule. there are plenty of techniques out there that are real simple to jam up someone using a gun, alot of them fairly simple, a good solid knife or spearhand to the inside elbow of the arm drawing the weapon can do alot towards making someone fumble their weapon, if you have a knife and are any good with it there is very little problem with going to a cut to the wrist going for the firearm. Basically what it runs down to though is who is better prepared at those distances. Beyond 21' and a trained shooter can usually empty their clip (obviously just talking 9mm and smaller, the climb on larger rounds makes this far less likely) whereas at shorter distances they might not even clear their weapon from their holster.

[CanRay]

Or, at less than 20-feet they can empty every magazine they have into a car with an unarmed visible minority in it and miss.

The car.

[Wounded Ronin]

Beyond 21' and a trained shooter can usually empty their clip (obviously just talking 9mm and smaller, the climb on larger rounds makes this far less likely) whereas at shorter distances they might not even clear their weapon from their holster.

MAGAZINE!!!

(Unless you're carrying around an SKS, in which case...use the bayonet!)

[Wounded Ronin]

Death isn't necessilary the result. Killing someone with a knife isn't as easy as it sounds. But a stab, certainly. The issue is how long it takes to perceive that the suspect is charging, draw the gun, point it, and fire versus how long it takes a charging man to close the gap. If the gun is already drawn, then that distance is greatly reduced.

By the way, as a member of the ARMA who also does shooting sports, I would now on the whole rather be armed with a 1911 than with a longsword. The 1911 is easier to use in close quarters, will tend to cause more severe damage and trauma to the body with a successful hit, and can attack much more rapidly. It can also be used much more effectively than the longsword if you, the user, happened to be injured yourself.

I know I was being a little bit comedic about the 21 foot rule before, but the 21 foot rule applies if you have to draw from a holster to engage a charging man with a knife. If you already have your gun out and are more or less sighted in on the guy, just blow the fucker away.

.....I know this because of dicking around with an airsoft pistol, a shock knife, and a friend.

(I can totally see how someone who isn't highly proficient with their handgun could fuck it up under pressure, though. He sees the knife man coming at him and tries to draw, and ends up drawing with a poor firing grip. He fires with only a rear sight picture, and either misses or inflicts a non-incapacitating wound, and then the pistol gets a type 2 malfunction because of poor grip and weapon stability. He tries to clear the type 2 malfunction and creates a type 3 malfunction because he didn't rack the slide back all the way and the spent casing falls/gets pushed back into the chamber by the next cartridge trying to feed. While getting his intestines ripped out by the knife man who has since cleared the distance. So, even if the knife dude were over 21 feet away, someone who isn't cracker jack solid with their muscle memory and gun manipulation could definitely drop the ball and still die to the knife man, in my opinion.)

[CanRay]

MAGAZINE!!!

(Unless you're carrying around an SKS, in which case...use the bayonet!)

What about a M1 Garand, an SMLE, or a Mauser 98G/98K?

[Muspellsheimr]

Guns are ranged weapons.
Knives are melee weapons.
Treat them as such.

Yes, when distance is a significant factor, firearms are obviously the superior choice. However, if you are already in melee range, or can become so in negligible time, knives are by far more dangerous & effective. Even moderately trained, a gunman can easily be disabled by an unarmed assailant.

[CanRay]

Thus the need for a good, sturdy rifle. Ranged weapon and beatin' stick all in one if even semi-properly trained!

Properly trained, a lethal combination.

[Faraday]

<3 melee hardening.

[Wounded Ronin]

What about a M1 Garand, an SMLE, or a Mauser 98G/98K?

On a train?

[Wounded Ronin]

Thus the need for a good, sturdy rifle. Ranged weapon and beatin' stick all in one if even semi-properly trained!

Properly trained, a lethal combination.

One day, I went to a friend's house who had a pell in his back yard. After stabbing the pell a few times with the bayonet on my mosin nagant, I decided to buttstroke the pell.

The wood on the stock got dinged.

I decided that old heavy wooden rifles are more properly used as stabbin' sticks than beatin' sticks.

I do like the fact that a lot of bolt action rifles from the early 20th are like big heavy spears...that can shoot.

[Tyro]

One day, I went to a friend's house who had a pell in his back yard. After stabbing the pell a few times with the bayonet on my mosin nagant, I decided to buttstroke the pell.

The wood on the stock got dinged.

I decided that old heavy wooden rifles are more properly used as stabbin' sticks than beatin' sticks.

I do like the fact that a lot of bolt action rifles from the early 20th are like big heavy spears...that can shoot.

That reminds me of the standard rifle issued to French infantry.

It's most effective as a rather awkward club.

They were once one of the most militarily advanced countries in the world, but somehow they just never got the knack of gunpowerder-based technology. They invented a machine gun during Vietnam which had holes in the side of the magazine so the gunner could see how many rounds were left. Predictably, they got clogged with dirt and quickly became unusable. WTF?

[PBTHHHHT]

That reminds me of the standard rifle issued to French infantry.

It's most effective as a rather awkward club.

They were once one of the most militarily advanced countries in the world, but somehow they just never got the knack of gunpowerder-based technology. They invented a machine gun during Vietnam which had holes in the side of the magazine so the gunner could see how many rounds were left. Predictably, they got clogged with dirt and quickly became unusable. WTF?

That was actually WW1, the weapon in question you're probably thinking of is the chauchat, it was mentioned in different series on History channel, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat

[Tyro]

That was actually WW1, the weapon in question you're probably thinking of is the chauchat, it was mentioned in different series on History channel, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat

That's the one. My bad. In my defense, not much sleep recently.

[CanRay]

They invented a machine gun during Vietnam which had holes in the side of the magazine so the gunner could see how many rounds were left. Predictably, they got clogged with dirt and quickly became unusable. WTF?

WWII, as mentioned before, and it's infamous as the worst built machine gun in history, without argument. Which, if you know gun nuts, means a whole hell of a lot. Let's just say it was designed by committee and leave it at that. (No, I'm not joking, it really was. And this characterizes Between-War France and it's military designs, and is one of the many reasons that Germany practically drove through the Country.).

And, to be fair, that problem about the "Slot to see the ammo" has been a problem repeated in firearms history for quite some time. The Henry Rifle (Precursor to the Winchester Rifle of Western fame!) had the same issue.

[WhiskeyJohnny]

...They were once one of the most militarily advanced countries in the world, but somehow [the French] just never got the knack of gunpowerder-based technology...

Ummm, you do realize that the French practically invented smokeless powder, right? And that they basically fought the Germans to a standstill in WWI (despite the fantastically awful Chauchat)? And that they built the first truly modern tank? And that they destroyed the entire Ivorian Air Force in 2004?

I'm sorry, but the French have some seriously scary dudes waiting to do violence in the night (13eme RDP, Legion Etrange, Chasseurs Alpines, to name but three units). They get a bad rap for World War II (unjustifiedly so, in my opinion) and everyone seems to ignore their actions before or since.

[CanRay]

Ummm, you do realize that the French practically invented smokeless powder, right? And that they basically fought the Germans to a standstill in WWI (despite the fantastically awful Chauchat)? And that they built the first truly modern tank? And that they destroyed the entire Ivorian Air Force in 2004?

I'm sorry, but the French have some seriously scary dudes waiting to do violence in the night (13eme RDP, Legion Etrange, Chasseurs Alpines, to name but three units). They get a bad rap for World War II (unjustifiedly so, in my opinion) and everyone seems to ignore their actions before or since.

I had a big, long list of things and examples, then decided, bah...

The French are great innovators when it comes to military hardware. They just hold onto their "Great Innovations" too long after everyone else has improved on the originals.

As for the reputation of French Soldiers in WWII... Battle of Dunkirk. 'Nuff said. They held off the previously unstoppable German Advance while the British were able to retreat back to England. Admittedly, they had a little help from Hitler insisting on using the Air Forces more than the Ground Forces, but it was still not the walk in the park people think it was.

As well, French Forces fought in the Italian Campaign. The hard part of the Italian Campaign.

Honestly? You want a bad reputation for French in WWII, look at Non-Volunteer Québécois French-Canadians. There's a bloody bunch of cowards that deserve a bad rep! The Volunteers, however, well, they were scary from a Canadian standpoint.