SR Russian Army Options

[Fatum]

Okay, so. Blah-blah-blah alt.war project yadda-yadda writing up Russia.
So, as we know from SoA, T:SH and Sturmvogel novel, Russia is a militaristic state possessing a large nuclear stockpile, some of it on submarines.
As we know from RL logic, nuclear weapons are meant as a part of checks and balances in a system like the Cold War one.
Now, the question is - who is Russia arming against with nukes? Who are they trying to keep parity with? UCAS, CAS and other NA nations are hardly a threat; JIS is checked on by the Pacific Fleet, the Chinese are busy with their internal affairs; the AoA is not too likely to reappear any time soon...
So, why the nukes?

[ProfGast]

You need something to keep the more powerful dragons honest...

[WhiskeyJohnny]

You need something to keep the more powerful dragons honest...

I may be new to Shadowrun, but I got the impression you'd need more than thermonuclear weapons to faze a more powerful dragon...

[EKBT81]

Well, I'd suspect a sort of "we've always had 'em" thinking. I guess Britain and France won't have given up their nuclear arsenals either. IIRC the JIS is also a nuclear power, so you'd want nukes to keep them in check.

On a less rational level, nuclear weapons are a kind of status symbol, a "great power" insignia.

[CanRay]

Or maybe the Russians know something that other countries don't.

Certainly possible with Evo being in their back yard now to apprise them of things Man was not meant to know...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I don't know, perhaps it is my biased "ocidental point of view" about russians. But russians seem to me like the kind of people that would burn down their houses and salt the earth before allowing someone to take it from them. Even nukes becoming unreliable in the Sixth World, no one is going to try and see how much unreliable nukes have become. Ok, they lost Yakut, but I think the higher ups still think they are some kind of temporary rebellion that will soon be dealt with, somewhat similar to Taiwan and China.
Just my opinion anyway.

[CanRay]

I don't know, the Russians were certainly selling a lot of stuff at Fire Sale prices when the Iron Curtain rusted away from what I recall...

I really kick myself for not getting one of those Titanium Crowbars I heard they were selling.

[Fatum]

See, it's all fun and games, and I see the logic behind your assumptions.
But nukes are frigging costly to maintain. Subs on alert in the ocean, and a reliable com system to send the command over should the shit hit the fan? Even more so.
If it was done purely out of "great power" ambitions (something SR Russia doesn't really that much basis for), perhaps they'd at least scale it down? Stop producing nuclear devices, at least, like the man-portable ones of which they lost a bunch back in the 50ies?

Oh, and in what comes to dragons - ICBMs aren't too useful against something that mobile. Maybe if you nuked the lair...

[CanRay]

Horseshoes, hand grenades, and thermonuclear weapons.

[Megu]

India's still around and nuclear armed, and they've made out better than most of today's powers. It'd be interesting to see a new Great Game play out in Turkestan, on that note...

[PoliteMan]

I doubt Russia has any specific threat in mind but they're bounded in the East by Imperial Japan and Lung's China, in the West by various European entities, most prominently Llofwyr, and in the South by a variety of competing parties. Without nukes they'd be open to the predation by others, if nothing else.
Edit: Remember the fact that Russia has historically always sought to expand its territory and nukes would be a precondition for that for any SR Russian state.

As for the nukes themselves, well, SR generally treads that area very carefully. The core problem is that a lot of the major in-game powers (Dragons, IEs, and Mega Corps to a certain extent) could be challenged or eliminated by even a moderately powerful nation-state with a few nukes and a decent delivery system. So, in order to keep the setting constant, nukes are consistently weakened in-game. There's a limit to that, however, because in RL we all know how dangerous nukes are and they should only be more so given SR tech. Having a dragon survive even a low-yield nuclear blast would strain believability. So I'd kinda stay away from nukes in an alt.WAR book, there's a lot of awesome stuff in the setting which simply doesn't work in a nuclear world.

[Nath]

The Russian had a puppet government in Poland from 2039 to 2064, maintaining a military presence in the country all along (the reason for Russia to start the first Eurowar itself and controlling Poland is bit more blurry : Nationalist electoral strategy ? Access to industrial or agricultural assets ? Securing seaport access and international natural gas pipeline ?)? Anyway, a Russian nuclear arsenal would be a solid deterrent against a German-Austria-Czech joint force trying to free Poland.

The situation evolved in Poland following the crash in System Failure, but that was only eight years ago. The Russian militaries should only start considering a policy shift on nuclear weapons by now.

[Sengir]

See, it's all fun and games, and I see the logic behind your assumptions.
But nukes are frigging costly to maintain. Subs on alert in the ocean, and a reliable com system to send the command over should the shit hit the fan? Even more so.
If it was done purely out of "great power" ambitions (something SR Russia doesn't really that much basis for), perhaps they'd at least scale it down? Stop producing nuclear devices, at least, like the man-portable ones of which they lost a bunch back in the 50ies?

If you want the meta reason, there are three things which make up the popular cliche of the Russian army
1.) It consists only of generals (fanatical, giant hats) and an endless supply of conscripts (expendable, drunk), from time to time one of the fanatics with the funny hats has to shoot one of the drunk expendables to enforce some semblance of discipline
2.) Russian tech is primitive yet durable, and if something breaks the only tool you need is a hammer
3.) They've got an endless supply of nukes in all shapes, so that just about every book and movie plot about the Russian army can use at least half a dozen

So of course them ruskies got nukes. As somebody once wrote on this board, FASA basically took the country descriptions of SR straight from the big book of stereotypes.



As a more IC reason, nukes still are a significant power factor which even great dragons are afraid of. They may not be great for offensive use, but work great for telling people to get off your *~'+*$ lawn. and looking at a map, Russia still has plenty of lawn to defend. Given the general balkanization of the world what happened to Russia actually is a joke, even the North Caucasus region did not break ranks.

[Fatum]

I doubt Russia has any specific threat in mind but they're bounded in the East by Imperial Japan and Lung's China, in the West by various European entities, most prominently Llofwyr, and in the South by a variety of competing parties. Without nukes they'd be open to the predation by others, if nothing else.

I got the impression all those powers have their own problems to deal with. Besides, Russia won its part of the Second Euro War without nuclear weapons...

Edit: Remember the fact that Russia has historically always sought to expand its territory and nukes would be a precondition for that for any SR Russian state.

Everyone ever has historically always sought to expand their territory. An uh, against someone with similar destructive capabilities - like NAN, for example, - you don't need nukes to know better than to attack them.
For shoving minor powers around, nukes would only be needed if there was someone else to threaten the NSS with a nuclear strike if it doesn't behave; and I don't think there are any such powers left, at least not ones carrying about anyone surrounding Russia.

As for the nukes themselves, well, SR generally treads that area very carefully. The core problem is that a lot of the major in-game powers (Dragons, IEs, and Mega Corps to a certain extent) could be challenged or eliminated by even a moderately powerful nation-state with a few nukes and a decent delivery system. So, in order to keep the setting constant, nukes are consistently weakened in-game.

I don't really think so. See, to begin with dragons and IEs are ultra-powerful magicians and cunning politicians. Add to that the fact that dragons are highly mobile, and thus ICBMs are no good against them; and using short-range delivery methods means being in range for draconic magic and counter-strikes by their affiliated powers. IEs are just civilians of other nations (or Russia too, are there any immortal elves in Russia?) And it's not like you can nuke a foreign city without major repercussions.
Megas just have THOR platforms, that is, they are neck-deep in nuclear parity mentality, and you can't touch them.

There's a limit to that, however, because in RL we all know how dangerous nukes are and they should only be more so given SR tech. Having a dragon survive even a low-yield nuclear blast would strain believability. So I'd kinda stay away from nukes in an alt.WAR book, there's a lot of awesome stuff in the setting which simply doesn't work in a nuclear world.

I can't just drop a part of canon fluff from previous editions, can I? It will in no way be the focal point (as you can see), but it's not like it's possible to describe the Russian Armed Forces and just drop the RVSN.
I just can't understand - sure, yeah, Russia could have reasons to be in possession of tools for nuclear deterrence, like the ones you and others described, from "super power" nostalgia to using them as a big club to intimidate others in international politics. I just can't see any reason for producing and employing very expensive tools intended for very specific purposes - like boomer subs. You don't really need those if you don't expect an all-out war with another super-power that'd wipe your whole country clean.

The Russian had a puppet government in Poland from 2039 to 2064, maintaining a military presence in the country all along (the reason for Russia to start the first Eurowar itself and controlling Poland is bit more blurry : Nationalist electoral strategy ? Access to industrial or agricultural assets ? Securing seaport access and international natural gas pipeline ?)?

Well, the way I understand from T:SH and SoE, during the first round of Border Wars in 2005, Russia moved to occupy the Baltic states, Belarus and Ukraine, prompting a campaign some dozen years long.
Polish forces aided Belarus and the Baltic states throughout the 2010ies, and in 2012 entered Belarus "to protect refugees", occupying Grodno and Brzesc.
When in 2030 Russia was so obviously defeated by Awakened forces in Yakut, nationalist forces in the occupied countries started a full-out rebellion, restoring their countries' independence and starting the second round of Border Wars. Russia promptly moved to fight on two fronts (it's not like this has always been a bad idea), and during that fighting used the good excuse of Kaliningrad accident to get the Polish-occupied territory back.
Now, why they moved on to Poland may be explained - they were at war already, so why the hell not?
The only believable reason to attack everyone else after that was suggested by one of my players - there was physically no place in Poland to station all the troops Russia is said to have moved there. :3

Anyway, a Russian nuclear arsenal would be a solid deterrent against a German-Austria-Czech joint force trying to free Poland.

And start the third Euro War after one they almost lost, even without the nukes involved from any side? Fighting against the bulk of Russian army, and not the 200k in Poland?
Besides, what would their interest be? It's not like France, England or Poland were too eager to help Czechs in 1938, despite the alliances; same goes for Poland itself in 1939 with the Phony War, so leaving it be, especially with their own pseudo-legitimate government in place, would be quite in the traditions of European diplomacy.

The situation evolved in Poland following the crash in System Failure, but that was only eight years ago. The Russian militaries should only start considering a policy shift on nuclear weapons by now.

God.Damn. Why didn't you mention that book in the alt.war thread? D: I'll have to change quite a lot in my draft.
Still, that development in System Failure just doesn't make much sense to me - in Shadows of Europe, everyone including the Free Poles agreed that Free Poland had absolutely no chances in a direct military confrontation with National Republic of Poland, if only because of vast Russian air superiority that kept them pinned. Besides, the core of Free Poland's forces were the Husaria mercs - that is, the remains of Polish Army Group West, one that those same Russian forces employed in the National Republic of Poland in 2064 easily defeated. Okay, yeah, Rybinsky escaped along with his minions (to Russia), and the Russian forces were withdrawn to their bases - but why did he, if there was no realistic reason for him to lose? God. That is a rather... unexpected development for me, let's just say that.
Thanks for mentioning it yet still...

So of course them ruskies got nukes. As somebody once wrote on this board, FASA basically took the country descriptions of SR straight from the big book of stereotypes.

Nah, of course I see the OOC reasons. But it's not like I can write "Russia has nuclear missile-bearing submarines because Russia always has and has always had nuclear missile-bearing submarines" in my draft IC, can I? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As a more IC reason, nukes still are a significant power factor which even great dragons are afraid of. They may not be great for offensive use, but work great for telling people to get off your *~'+*$ lawn. and looking at a map, Russia still has plenty of lawn to defend. Given the general balkanization of the world what happened to Russia actually is a joke, even the North Caucasus region did not break ranks.

There was trouble in Caucasus region mentioned, if I recall, it just ended pretty much the same as in RL - it was more or less dealt with.
And I don't believe losing half your territory, along with the majority of large resource deposits, counts as a joke.
Actually, I have no idea how Russia manages to afford even its conscripted army upkeep, minding that it has little to no natural resources to sell, and there are barely any mentions of Russian companies, firearms or vehicles in the books.

[Sengir]

Nah, of course I see the OOC reasons. But it's not like I can write "Russia has nuclear missile-bearing submarines because Russia always has and has always had nuclear missile-bearing submarines" in my draft IC, can I? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Never underestimate the power of "we've always done it like that" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

There was trouble in Caucasus region mentioned, if I recall, it just ended pretty much the same as in RL - it was more or less dealt with.
And I don't believe losing half your territory, along with the majority of large resource deposits, counts as a joke.

Sure, Russia lost Siberia, but compared to the balkanization of other countries they're still in good shape. They kept the Caucasian region with its oil fields and strategic significance, because while just about every more-or-less repressed ethnic group around the world claimed their own state and Russia was fighting wars left and right, the Caucasian folks just decided to stay. The far east is still Russian and not occupied by the JIS, who preferred to invade California. And what sparse detail is available about the Eurowars suggests most of it took place outside Russian borders, so the industry did not get ravaged like that of other countries.

All in all, Russia could easily be the one remaining national superpower...if all this strength was not just due to the fact that everything east of Germany got mostly glossed over, so probably FASA just didn't remember to break up Russia properly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Nath]

The far east is still Russian and not occupied by the JIS, who preferred to invade California.

The Japanese never invaded California. The Californian government required their help to stop the Aztlan and Tir Tairngire invaders. They actually avoided landing troops in Los Angeles because an UCAS naval force was too close.

The Japanese deployment over unrest and riots in the Philippines in 2021 was an actual invasion, though it doesn't seem they encountered resistance from the Filipino military. Otherwise, I think the only time Japan was involved in a real war in SR was 2006 in Korea, only after North Korea lobbed missiles at them.

Japan probably doesn't want to look an aggressor, and the Russian never offered them an opportunity to intervene under the guise of stabilization mission (I guess they could have publicly sided with the European in 2031 and opened an eastern front, but they obviously didn't ; maybe they weren't ready, because of the 2029 Crash). And as that piece of land is stuck between the awakened forces of Yakut and Manchuria, an attempt to destabilize the area on purpose may not result in the desired result.

[CanRay]

Russia was heavily involved in the EuroWars, however, weren't they?

[nezumi]

40 years ago a group of primitives up and offed the most powerful nation on the map.
30 years ago a dragon appeared and ate a jetliner.
20 years ago a major metropolitan area was consumed by strange, extra-dimensional critters too strong for conventional tactics.
10 years ago someone dun broke reality itself, and a bunch of weird, body-stealing monsters came flying out.
Like six months ago, someone tried to destroy the entire world.

Yeah, even if nukes aren't fully 100% effective, if I were in Russia's position, I'd probably hold onto them too. Seems like they might JUST come in handy.

[CanRay]

Yeah, I can certainly see that. But for the resources that go into maintaining unreliable nukes, so much more could be made into nice, reliable conventional explosives. FAE/MOAB (Actually, Russia apparently has a FOAB!) is still a very effective weapon, and doesn't have any of the nasty connotations that nukes have. As well, the radioactive material can be used as fuel for nuclear reactors, so, double-bonus.

I remember finding out that weapons-grade radioactive material was driven through my town, and the military base there only found out a month later. The city was far from happy, to say the least, but had to confess that operational security was required.

That said, there's still the psychological reaction to Nukes, so there's reason to keep at least a few around.

[Sengir]

Japan probably doesn't want to look an aggressor

We are talking about the future of the 80s here, were it looked like Japan would become the new economic superpower. At least in my view, the pre-reform JIS in its fallback to chauvinism and racist iddeology wouldn't have given a flying fuck about other nations calling them aggressors.

And yes, "invade" was the wrong term for Calinfornia, as the Japanese were invited in. Still the result for the people living there was more or less the same as an invasion, because the protection force they invited turned out to be an occupation force (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

Yeah, requests for help really went downhill after Canada was no longer around to be called upon to help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The worst part of a Canadian Invasion is that we'll drink all the beer and complain about it's quality.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

I don't think nukes are unreliable in the game. Sure one or two fired at strategic targets didn't impact or go off, Magic can have that effect. However, if a country were to launch a full scale strike on a target, with land, air, and sea born missles, thousands of individual warheads. I would have to argue that that target is blown from the face of the earth, even with Magic, some of the warheads would get through. The few times nuclear weapons have been used in the game it was a few missles, and yes they where stopped, I just don't see a large scale strike being contained fully. So that's why a country would keep it's stock pile. You may stop fifty, but good luck with five thousand. It's just numbers, as to how they would target, anyone they wanted to, not to be silly, but countries with large nuclear arsenals plan to strike anyone and everyone. Rememeber, the only winning move is not to play.

[Fatum]

40 years ago a group of primitives up and offed the most powerful nation on the map.
30 years ago a dragon appeared and ate a jetliner.
20 years ago a major metropolitan area was consumed by strange, extra-dimensional critters too strong for conventional tactics.
10 years ago someone dun broke reality itself, and a bunch of weird, body-stealing monsters came flying out.
Like six months ago, someone tried to destroy the entire world.

Yeah, even if nukes aren't fully 100% effective, if I were in Russia's position, I'd probably hold onto them too. Seems like they might JUST come in handy.

And having a nuclear arsenal would help against any of those how?

I don't think nukes are unreliable in the game. Sure one or two fired at strategic targets didn't impact or go off, Magic can have that effect. However, if a country were to launch a full scale strike on a target, with land, air, and sea born missles, thousands of individual warheads. I would have to argue that that target is blown from the face of the earth, even with Magic, some of the warheads would get through. The few times nuclear weapons have been used in the game it was a few missles, and yes they where stopped, I just don't see a large scale strike being contained fully. So that's why a country would keep it's stock pile. You may stop fifty, but good luck with five thousand. It's just numbers, as to how they would target, anyone they wanted to, not to be silly, but countries with large nuclear arsenals plan to strike anyone and everyone. Rememeber, the only winning move is not to play.

The nukes used during Crash 2.0 worked reliably.
And yes, it looks like SR Russia is still preparing to nuke the whole world at once into fine gray dust.
I just not see anyone worthy of such power to be kept in check; and it's not like Russia's using it for nuclear blackmail - hell, it can't deal with a small rebel city mere kilometers from one of its largest harbours!

[sabs]

There are most certainly Immortal Elves in Russia.

Barsaive is in Russia (Eastern Ukraine, and the area north of Georgia.)

Kratas =Volgodonsk
Throal being around Volgograd
Blood Wood = Somewhere between Liski Bonsoglebsk

They wanted to keep the Old School Russia feel, After all when the game came out, we weren't sure the Iron Curtain would ever really fall.

[sabs]

On a different note:

Having Nukes did not help the US one bit, against the Indian Insurrection.
Even with the Russians more willing to nuke themselves, I just don't see it happening. That's not the reason why the Russians have nukes. Btw, with the Shedim, I see cremation being on the rise, potentially even a state mandated health requirement for disposing of bodies.