SR Russian Army Options

[Fatum]

There are most certainly Immortal Elves in Russia.

Barsaive is in Russia (Eastern Ukraine, and the area north of Georgia.)

Kratas =Volgodonsk
Throal being around Volgograd
Blood Wood = Somewhere between Liski Bonsoglebsk

They wanted to keep the Old School Russia feel, After all when the game came out, we weren't sure the Iron Curtain would ever really fall.

Uh, you mean Borisoglebsk? It's named after St.Boris and St.Gleb (the saint prince brothers) with -sk being the standard suffix for Russian cities (see Krasnoyarsk, Kursk or whatever).

Also, if, as per System Failure, there are Ukrainian Urals, I believe there can be Russian Barsaive, Russian Immortal Elves, and pretty much whatever.

Even with the Russians more willing to nuke themselves, I just don't see it happening.

...I am sorry, lol what?!

[sabs]

Look at a map of Barsaive:

http://pages.infinit.net/ebernier/map1.html
now compare it to:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.....511719&z=6

That's what I mean when I say that Barsaive is in Russia (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for the Nukes, I was saying I don't see Russia nuking it's own land, to keep the natives from getting it.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

I would think the UN Security Council would be the balance to that, I can see UCAS, Britain, France, Russia still having perminate seats, since China imploded, India would probably get a seat, or the CAS. The SR timeline never has mentioned that the Security council just went away or that the other world Nuclear powers just decomissioned all of their nuclear stockpiles. Nuclear weapons are more of a backburner issue in SR, the game's just not about nuking each other. So the developers and writers have never really done a good job explaining individual countires nuclear arsenals, because there really is no need to, in terms of the game. So if your writing for the war.alt project. keep it as real life as you can, and use the fluff as way to rationalize what you've written. Take that with a grain of salt though as your writing as there may be no backstory to help with this issue. WMDs are just something the game has always steered around. There's only a few places I can recall where they have been used in story terms. So I would say use your own judgement as to what the nuclear capabilities of a country are, and use RL as a way to explain your motives. The UN is still around, so is the World Health Organization, so I would think the UN Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and the UN Security Council. Use those to your atvantage., think outside the box too. Not a lot has been done to cover the topic of nuclear stockpiles in story terms so do your best. Try not to over think though you'll just go crosseyed, and rememeber, The only winning move is not to play.

[nezumi]

Nukes may not help with those specific instances, but the point is that the past 70 years have been an almost non-stop train to weirdsville, and if I was a major power, I would not drop a single tool in my arsenal for fear that it may be critical when the next freaky thing comes down the pipe. To do otherwise is like throwing away your screwdriver because your last five home improvement projects have only used your wrench and hammer.

[CanRay]

Nukes may not help with those specific instances, but the point is that the past 70 years have been an almost non-stop train to weirdsville...

"... And there's still another 30-odd years to go until the next century and what it holds in store for us." - Jon "Money" Johnson.

[Fatum]

I would think the UN Security Council would be the balance to that, I can see UCAS, Britain, France, Russia still having perminate seats, since China imploded, India would probably get a seat, or the CAS. The SR timeline never has mentioned that the Security council just went away or that the other world Nuclear powers just decomissioned all of their nuclear stockpiles. Nuclear weapons are more of a backburner issue in SR, the game's just not about nuking each other. So the developers and writers have never really done a good job explaining individual countires nuclear arsenals, because there really is no need to, in terms of the game. So if your writing for the war.alt project. keep it as real life as you can, and use the fluff as way to rationalize what you've written. Take that with a grain of salt though as your writing as there may be no backstory to help with this issue. WMDs are just something the game has always steered around. There's only a few places I can recall where they have been used in story terms. So I would say use your own judgement as to what the nuclear capabilities of a country are, and use RL as a way to explain your motives. The UN is still around, so is the World Health Organization, so I would think the UN Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and the UN Security Council. Use those to your atvantage., think outside the box too. Not a lot has been done to cover the topic of nuclear stockpiles in story terms so do your best. Try not to over think though you'll just go crosseyed, and rememeber, The only winning move is not to play.

Yet every book mentioning Russia consistently has something on Russian nuclear supply.
UN is a CC puppet, and has been for a long time by 72.

Nukes may not help with those specific instances, but the point is that the past 70 years have been an almost non-stop train to weirdsville, and if I was a major power, I would not drop a single tool in my arsenal for fear that it may be critical when the next freaky thing comes down the pipe. To do otherwise is like throwing away your screwdriver because your last five home improvement projects have only used your wrench and hammer.

Yeah, but if I have a very specific soldering iron used for soldering a specific type of chips, one I'm not going to encounter any time soon, I could at least replace it with something more universal.
The boomer subs being said soldering iron.

Actually, nukes as a whole work well against a specific kind of threats - comparable superpowers, ones that the balkanized Sixth World is not that rich with. And even then, it's only good for assured mutual destruction, not much more.

[nezumi]

Radiation causes a background count, which makes it very effective against some magical threats.

[Fatum]

Radiation causes a background count, which makes it very effective against some magical threats.

Uh, there are magical threats worthy of a nuke somewhere where you can drop one? In Antarctica?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Amazonia, the day, Aztlan/Aztechnology decides it is better them dead dead than keep fighting...

[StealthSigma]

Uh, there are magical threats worthy of a nuke somewhere where you can drop one? In Antarctica?

How many rifts have been created that had magical based creatures spawn forth from it?

[nezumi]

If a magical rift like what happened following dunkie opens up somewhere in Russia, they have a nice first-line defense. Indeed, as was stated, it probably would be effective against a dragon (or many mid- and low-level horrors). It might also be handy should Renraku ever decide to buy out Moscow, if as nothing more than a deterrent (okay, on that one the fact that it's nuclear vs. a large conventional warhead isn't so important). But like I said, the nuke is a specialized weapon with rather unique mission characteristics which is effective against magical and technological threats in ways that conventional weapons aren't, in what is clearly a hugely unstable future. Unless the cost of maintaining them is truly crippling, I just can't see any reason to scrap them, no matter how often you point out that they've been less then effective in past occaisions, or that THESE specific missiles are unlikely to be used in the future.

It's also a giant, metal penis that they can still wave in the air and say 'haha, we have an army of giant, metal penises!'

[Fatum]

Amazonia, the day, Aztlan/Aztechnology decides it is better them dead dead than keep fighting...

And ruin all their hard spin work?

How many rifts have been created that had magical based creatures spawn forth from it?

How would nuking one help?

If a magical rift like what happened following dunkie opens up somewhere in Russia, they have a nice first-line defense.

A nuke against astral beings? Even if UCAS had a nuke at Dunkelzahn rift when Ghostwalker emerged, would it really hard him (unlike them)?

Indeed, as was stated, it probably would be effective against a dragon (or many mid- and low-level horrors).

We've discussed already why not.

But like I said, the nuke is a specialized weapon with rather unique mission characteristics which is effective against magical and technological threats in ways that conventional weapons aren't, in what is clearly a hugely unstable future.

Oh, and what can nukes do in the Sixth World that a good aircraft carrier flotilla or a Great Ghost Dance can't?

It's also a giant, metal penis that they can still wave in the air and say 'haha, we have an army of giant, metal penises!'

I've met quite a number of people who tried to explain everything in the politics from space race to ICMBs and large-caliber cannons, basing solely on two ideas: "boys made those things" and "boys are obsessed with penises". Somehow, those people tended to be girls.
I am sure uncle Sigmund would find a word or two to comment on that.

[Sengir]

Uh, there are magical threats worthy of a nuke somewhere where you can drop one? In Antarctica?

Yakut. It's not like a nuclear detonation by itself is the end of the world, otherwise after decades of above-ground tests we'd all be dead by now (anyone have the link to that youtube vid with all the tests?EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAnqRQg-W0k). It's the political implications which are problematic, using nukes could lead on a slippery slope and using ICMBs is even worse, because everybody else has nothing more than your word that the nukes are not aimed at them...

[Fatum]

Russia is still hoping to get back Yakut resources (and between the recent Yakut rebellion, Russian population outnumbering Yakuts 10 to 1 and the enemies Yakuts made among the Triple As, it just might succeed), they don't need a nuclear wasteland.
Besides, Yakut is not that much of a threat - they can't deal with their own problems right now.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

Since your doing this for the alt.war project, i suggest just making it up as you see fit then. If the story line says russia has a strong nuclear arsenal, but doesn't give any info on other contries nuclear option or counterbalance, make it up. it's your job as the writer to make it seem logical and have use in the larger SR world. So add a section detailing the UCAS military having a large nuclear stockpile, or the french Monarchist threating retalitation for Russian aggression. Build a senerio that suits your needs and doesn't overwrite the SR cannon written so far. If the info is lacking, it's because no one thought it mattered or jsut never wrote any thing on it. So the alt.war project seems a good place to add those facts in. You seem to have done a good amount of research on the subject. Do your best to write a good counterbalance to the Russian Nuclear threat, since one is not already in the SR cannon. Britain, France, the UCAS, all good candidates. I think your gonna have to do a good deal of your own writing on this subject though. Since it's not really covered all that much by the current SR cannon

[Nath]

There are most certainly Immortal Elves in Russia.

Barsaive is in Russia (Eastern Ukraine, and the area north of Georgia.)

Kratas =Volgodonsk
Throal being around Volgograd
Blood Wood = Somewhere between Liski Bonsoglebsk

There is a theory about where exactly FASA people intended the Blood Wood to be...
- Blood Wood was previously called Wyrmwood (when Alamaise ruled over it)
- Wormwood is a common name in English of Artemisia genus of plants.
- Artemisia is called Чорнобиль in Ukrainian.
- Чорнобиль is the name of a place, written Chernobyl in English.

A bunch of the immortal elves known to reside in Bloodwood during the Earthdawn era have traveled the world since. There was a lot of finer place to spend their time waiting for the Sixth World, like Roma, Constantinople, Paris, London, Los Angeles...
So, as I said above maybe by the time magic returned, Bloodwood became a irradiated wasteland. Maybe also they did not want to give Alachia her throne back, and created a new nation instead. Crater Lake is the only reason I can think of to choose Oregon, and have them manipulate geopolitical events (supporting the SAIM and having the Salish-Shidhe council taking a pro-metahuman stance) so as to create Tir Tairngire.

I would think the UN Security Council would be the balance to that, I can see UCAS, Britain, France, Russia still having perminate seats, since China imploded, India would probably get a seat, or the CAS. The SR timeline never has mentioned that the Security council just went away or that the other world Nuclear powers just decomissioned all of their nuclear stockpiles.

Loose Alliances, had the Second Charter of the United Nations in 2045 making Amazonia, France, Japan, UCAS and Great Britain permanent members of the UN Security Council. However, they no longer have a veto, getting two votes instead.

Note the permanent seat on the Security Council has nothing to do with nuclear weapons. Only the US had nuclear weapons in 1946. China, France, Soviet Union, UK and US were winners of the war and had the largest population and territories (as that was before the end of the British and French colonial empire). It just happens that assessment they were the most powerful countries in the world was somewhat right in that they also happened to be the first five countries to get nuclear weapon technology.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

Loose Alliances, had the Second Charter of the United Nations in 2045 making Amazonia, France, Japan, UCAS and Great Britain permanent members of the UN Security Council. However, they no longer have a veto, getting two votes instead.


There you go Fatum. Again, if the cannon doesn't give a clear cut example of a balance for the Russian military or nuclear stockpile, make one up, the alt.war project looks good so far you guys are doing a good job. My fear is that some of the support from the SR cannon my not be there, so use your best judgement as to how you would feel would be the best balance to Russia's might. do the best you can with what you have, and remenber, the only winning move is not to play

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

And ruin all their hard spin work?

Just saying that if bad comes to worst, I think Aztlan/Aztechnology would use the final solution. I mean, the magical equivalent to a nuclear bomb (Ghost Dance) against Amazonia probably wouldn't work or it would extremely weakened by whatever Dragon mojo Hualpa and Sirrurg have there. Nuclear strikes on the other hand...

[PoliteMan]

Oh, and what can nukes do in the Sixth World that a good aircraft carrier flotilla or a Great Ghost Dance can't?

Nuclear weapons in submarines are immune to first strikes, they can be targetted and fired within 45 minutes, and they do not require the massive resources that a flotilla would or blood magic like a GGD would. Magic is generally ineffective against them because the missile is either in the upper atmosphere where magic is weak or falling to earth (with decoys) at somewhere around Mach 12. If you can catch them in the boost stage they're vulnerable but a technological SDI would probably be more effective and there's no evidence that even SR tech has overcome the tech challenges of that and there's no mention of any of the permanent installations such a strategy would require.

Consider the GGD. Presume the US actually knew something like the GGD was possible and kept track of the people capable of such magic (like the hundreds of shamman the GGD required). Once you have any evidence of such a gathering, finding the location would be easy in SR and even possible with modern tech. Within an hour of such a gathering, any nuclear state could probably have hit the gathering with a limited strike, although the ritual time of the GGD is unknown it's unlikely at a minimum they could even escape the blast radius. An SR Russian state would be likely to take all of these precautions.

Put simply, any non-nuclear force might be able to duplicate the effects of a nuclear strike but they're more vulnerable to attack than nukes are, easier to find and track, and harder ot use.

On the vulnerability of Dragons to nukes

I don't really think so. See, to begin with dragons and IEs are ultra-powerful magicians and cunning politicians. Add to that the fact that dragons are highly mobile, and thus ICBMs are no good against them; and using short-range delivery methods means being in range for draconic magic and counter-strikes by their affiliated powers. IEs are just civilians of other nations (or Russia too, are there any immortal elves in Russia?) And it's not like you can nuke a foreign city without major repercussions.
Megas just have THOR platforms, that is, they are neck-deep in nuclear parity mentality, and you can't touch them.

A couple of points:
#1 All of them have political bases which are the actual threat to a state like Russia. Compare Llowfyr and Sirrug. Sirrug is nasty but he's not a threat to Russia as a nation, SK and Llowfyr potentially are. However, because of that power, their mobility is limited. Yes, Llowfyr could theoretically fly away from a blast (see #2) but his infrastructure can't and it's that infrastructure in SK, Tir Tiagire, etc which is the actualt threat. Llowfyr without SK is like Sirrug: a very powerful and dangerous terrorist entity, nothing more.
#2 The rapid launch time and sheer devastation that even a small nuclear launch would cause makes any attempt to flee pointless. The primary delay in a missile launch is due to planning and target acquisition, these things can be safely hidden from prying eyes, meaning that the first warning the target will likely recieve is at launch. At that point I've heard various estimates of the time from launch to target, mostly in the range of 15 minutes although most of the info I looked at was for relatively short range targets. That's 15 minutes for a dragon or IE to detect the launch, determine that he is the intended target, and get to a safe distance, which may be more than 60 miles away. 15 minutes (at best) to cross a distance of 60 miles is challenging to say the least. There is no effective magical defense I can think of; as previously stated the missiles are either in the upper atmosphere where magic will be of almost no use or falling to Earth at Mach Silly at which point speed is a pretty effective defense since it'll be passing into and out of anybody's LOS before they can cast.
#3 Thors are dangerously vulnerable. Besides the fact that a Thor type sat can be hit with modern missile tech, it's also virtually impossible to defend them because they're vulnerable to both missile saturation and the nuclear option, where by instead you shoot the sats with nuclear missiles. A single nuclear blast could hit several sats, doesn't have to get that close to the sat, and any sat is unlikely to be able to resist the nuclear heat, radiation, and EMP.

[nezumi]

Interestingly, I'm under the impression that a nuclear attack in space would NOT create an EMP wave, as it has no atmosphere to excite to the necessary degree to create one. There are probably dedicated EMP devices, or you could aim your nuke at a habitat with an atmosphere, though.

So is the Bloodwood actually Chernobyl? That is so hard core. I love it.

[Sengir]

So is the Bloodwood actually Chernobyl? That is so hard core. I love it.

+++

Once again I mourn for never having an opportunity to play my Stalker runner (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[sabs]

It's a bit hard to tell.

Vivane is in Romania.
Blood Wood seems to be Moscow
The scale is off a little.

[Fatum]

Since your doing this for the alt.war project, i suggest just making it up as you see fit then. If the story line says russia has a strong nuclear arsenal, but doesn't give any info on other contries nuclear option or counterbalance, make it up. it's your job as the writer to make it seem logical and have use in the larger SR world. So add a section detailing the UCAS military having a large nuclear stockpile, or the french Monarchist threating retalitation for Russian aggression. Build a senerio that suits your needs and doesn't overwrite the SR cannon written so far. If the info is lacking, it's because no one thought it mattered or jsut never wrote any thing on it. So the alt.war project seems a good place to add those facts in. You seem to have done a good amount of research on the subject. Do your best to write a good counterbalance to the Russian Nuclear threat, since one is not already in the SR cannon. Britain, France, the UCAS, all good candidates. I think your gonna have to do a good deal of your own writing on this subject though. Since it's not really covered all that much by the current SR cannon

See, I got into SR in the height of fourth edition; that is, while I've read quite a number of books from previous editions, there is still much more unread by me. As brilliantly demonstrated by Nath in this thread alone, that means that large chunks of fluff escape me.
That's why I ask the community, which by its nature has read every SR book in existence: is there anything canonical out there that I'm missing?

Loose Alliances, had the Second Charter of the United Nations in 2045 making Amazonia, France, Japan, UCAS and Great Britain permanent members of the UN Security Council. However, they no longer have a veto, getting two votes instead.

Yep, and Russia was ousted after the beginning of the First Euro War, and... never bothered to return? decided to gather its toys and go home? Even Soviet Union joined the League of Nations after some ten years of diplomatic work, and it was all about exporting Revolution then (well, less by the time it joined the organization, but still).

Just saying that if bad comes to worst, I think Aztlan/Aztechnology would use the final solution. I mean, the magical equivalent to a nuclear bomb (Ghost Dance) against Amazonia probably wouldn't work or it would extremely weakened by whatever Dragon mojo Hualpa and Sirrurg have there. Nuclear strikes on the other hand...

Well, I don't think that if the Greats have a weapon against the GGD, they don't have anything against the nukes. Besides, does Atzlan even have nukes?

Nuclear weapons in submarines are immune to first strikes, they can be targetted and fired within 45 minutes, and they do not require the massive resources that a flotilla would or blood magic like a GGD would. Magic is generally ineffective against them because the missile is either in the upper atmosphere where magic is weak or falling to earth (with decoys) at somewhere around Mach 12. If you can catch them in the boost stage they're vulnerable but a technological SDI would probably be more effective and there's no evidence that even SR tech has overcome the tech challenges of that and there's no mention of any of the permanent installations such a strategy would require.

Well, Russia is stated to possess aircraft carriers and a major fleet in the Pacific, so they are already paying for the flotilla.
Besides, subs can be located with SR tech, if not with LR sonars, then with astral spotters (especially minding that the bodies of water those subs are based in, be it the NW Pacific, the White Sea, the Baltic Sea or the Black Sea, are pretty much controlled by the forces hardly friendly towards Russia). And I don't see any reasons for a ritual casting first strike not to work.
Though missile silos are a different can of worms, those are more secure in that regard.

Consider the GGD. Presume the US actually knew something like the GGD was possible and kept track of the people capable of such magic (like the hundreds of shamman the GGD required). Once you have any evidence of such a gathering, finding the location would be easy in SR and even possible with modern tech. Within an hour of such a gathering, any nuclear state could probably have hit the gathering with a limited strike, although the ritual time of the GGD is unknown it's unlikely at a minimum they could even escape the blast radius. An SR Russian state would be likely to take all of these precautions.

Uh, US was fully aware of GGD effectiveness during the Indian rebellion; and they knew that GGD is being used against them pretty much continuously. Yet, no luck.
Same with Russia which lost Chukchi Peninsula to TPA after a GGD (and, arguably, after a similar story with Yakut).

On the vulnerability of Dragons to nukes
#1 All of them have political bases which are the actual threat to a state like Russia. Compare Llowfyr and Sirrug. Sirrug is nasty but he's not a threat to Russia as a nation, SK and Llowfyr potentially are. However, because of that power, their mobility is limited. Yes, Llowfyr could theoretically fly away from a blast (see #2) but his infrastructure can't and it's that infrastructure in SK, Tir Tiagire, etc which is the actualt threat. Llowfyr without SK is like Sirrug: a very powerful and dangerous terrorist entity, nothing more.

See, doing things like that against the dragons with actual political clout is pretty much starting a nuclear/all out war. And unlike a president of a foreign nation, a Great has a chance to survive the initial attack.

#2 The rapid launch time and sheer devastation that even a small nuclear launch would cause makes any attempt to flee pointless. The primary delay in a missile launch is due to planning and target acquisition, these things can be safely hidden from prying eyes, meaning that the first warning the target will likely recieve is at launch. At that point I've heard various estimates of the time from launch to target, mostly in the range of 15 minutes although most of the info I looked at was for relatively short range targets. That's 15 minutes for a dragon or IE to detect the launch, determine that he is the intended target, and get to a safe distance, which may be more than 60 miles away. 15 minutes (at best) to cross a distance of 60 miles is challenging to say the least. There is no effective magical defense I can think of; as previously stated the missiles are either in the upper atmosphere where magic will be of almost no use or falling to Earth at Mach Silly at which point speed is a pretty effective defense since it'll be passing into and out of anybody's LOS before they can cast.

ICBMs don't do "target acquisition", their targets are hard-coded, and changing them is a major undertaking (actually, informing about such a move is a part of a good old nuclear blackmail). Also, nukes aren't magical - arrival time is about 45 minutes worldwide, with the majority of time devoted to climbing up the well and maneuvering up there. That leaves a Great plenty of time to get scarce.

#3 Thors are dangerously vulnerable. Besides the fact that a Thor type sat can be hit with modern missile tech, it's also virtually impossible to defend them because they're vulnerable to both missile saturation and the nuclear option, where by instead you shoot the sats with nuclear missiles. A single nuclear blast could hit several sats, doesn't have to get that close to the sat, and any sat is unlikely to be able to resist the nuclear heat, radiation, and EMP.

It's not like THOR sats fly in tight groups. And yes, of course you can bring them down from the sky - same as how your spec-ops units can sabotage a couple of nuclear missile silos. It just, again, means starting a global all-out war, including getting hit from the platforms remaining. That's what I mean when I say it's the good old nuclear deterrence situation all over again.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I don't remember where I read it, perhaps the Aztlan sourcebook, saying something about Aztechnology and other AAA corps with nuclear power.
Also, the US didn't think the Great Ghost Dance would work and even considered the eruption of the three mountains as a coincidence or at least told the population it had nothing to do with magic. Of course, this was 60 years ago, when Magic was fairly ignored and misunderstood by the great powers. The magical playground might be somewhat equal by now.

[Nath]

I don't remember where I read it, perhaps the Aztlan sourcebook, saying something about Aztechnology and other AAA corps with nuclear power.

Aztlan, page 110 and SOTA:2064, page 15. Most only have a few warheads ; only Ares Macrotechnology, Saeder-Krupp and MCT have real arsenals (the later reclaimed the North Korean program and maintains the nuclear capacity Japan cannot officially have).