Essence Drain Dilema, How do you handle the part that stays? Options

[TygerTyger]

The Essence Drain power states that, if the feeder has consumed essence within the last hour, they can spend some / all of it to boost a single stat. After 12 hours that wears off, and half of what you spent comes back.

With no other way to burn off the consumed essence, this of course becomes an issue for creatures like Nosferatu who only naturally burn one every six months.

What houserules have you used to alleviate this issue? We're trying to work through it in our group, and as we're all very, very new to Shadowrun, I (as the GM) am a bit concerned about balance issues.

We've considered having all the essence go - i.e. no "half comes back after 12 hours" which seems the easiest. Any problems with that?

[toturi]

The Essence Drain power states that, if the feeder has consumed essence within the last hour, they can spend some / all of it to boost a single stat. After 12 hours that wears off, and half of what you spent comes back.

With no other way to burn off the consumed essence, this of course becomes an issue for creatures like Nosferatu who only naturally burn one every six months.

What houserules have you used to alleviate this issue? We're trying to work through it in our group, and as we're all very, very new to Shadowrun, I (as the GM) am a bit concerned about balance issues.

We've considered having all the essence go - i.e. no "half comes back after 12 hours" which seems the easiest. Any problems with that?

What exactly is your issue with this?

[TygerTyger]

What exactly is your issue with this?

On Monday, a nosferatu drains a security guard of all his essence, which kills him. He spends the six essence boosting his Magic attribute. Twelve hours later, he gets three back, which he can't use for anything. If he does this six times in a six month period his essence is capped out at eighteen (which is nice) but he can't use it for anything. Six months after his first feeding, one point goes away... So if he waits three years or so, he might have an ability that is actually useful again.

That seems to be a problem for me. Unless we are mis-reading the power, like I said, we're new to this.

[toturi]

On Monday, a nosferatu drains a security guard of all his essence, which kills him. He spends the six essence boosting his Magic attribute. Twelve hours later, he gets three back, which he can't use for anything. If he does this six times in a six month period his essence is capped out at eighteen (which is nice) but he can't use it for anything. Six months after his first feeding, one point goes away... So if he waits three years or so, he might have an ability that is actually useful again.

That seems to be a problem for me. Unless we are mis-reading the power, like I said, we're new to this.

It seems to be a correct reading to me.

The thing is that after such a period of feeding, it will be a very long time before he needs to feed again. Basically I see the Essense Drain power as a minor plus, meant to offset Essense Loss. You may also consider that the nosferatu need not actually kill the victim everytime he feeds.

[TygerTyger]

All true, but that doesn't change the issue. The boost is a pretty significant part of the power, in fact its the only real bonus to the power. So that limit, especially on a nosferatu that only bleeds off one Essence every six months, is a very limiting factor.

[Yerameyahu]

For one thing, they're just bad rules and bad PCs, but I understand you're dead set on being Nosferatu as a first-ever character. If you think that the primary point of the power is to get cool bonuses, then yes, it could seem odd. If you think the point of the power is to steal Essence, though…

[Mardrax]

The real bonus to the power is the same kind of bonus you get from having a functional digestive system. You get to live, instead of withering away like the miserable, unnatural, diseased wretch you are.

[Starmage21]

The best way to interpret it is to say that within 1 hour of feeding, the creature can spend essence from his total. So if a Nosferatu feeds on monday and kills a guard, getting 6 essence, for a total of 11, he can then spend 10 of it within 1 hour. 12 Hours later, after his buff wears off, he regains 5. A Nosferatu on a full tank, in this fashion, could gain a total attribute bump of +8 points to split among physical attributes and magic.

Why is this cool? lines up with stories/tv shows that say vampires are more dangerous after theyve fed.

Why is this scary to GMs? GMs are always afraid of big numbers, but if you bump your magic by 6-8 points from a "full-tank boost", youre still limited by the amount of drain you can absorb (and so even if you do throw that "nuke" powerball at force 20, its probably going to kill you, and a grenade still couldve done the job better).

[Summerstorm]

Hm hm... while one could read that this way. I don't really think it states you can't just draw more than you can hold, or does it?

Say you have 12 old Essence, what is keeping you from draining 6 (hard too find though) of one dude, now having maxed out the 15, 6 of them new. (Old essence just purged or burned).

I mean if i am pretty well fed and not hungry i can still fit in a whole pizza with extra-cheese... i just need to... get some of the old stuff out faster, after that *g*.

Well, i for one at least play it like that. Just draw essence whenever you want, no matter how much you already got. Hell. Make it a orgy before the run, and draw 10 points for boosts or something. Just be aware that people won't like that very much. (So you are not only a parasite but a greedy monster).

EDIT: regarding to Starmages post: I would only let him use the "new" essence for boosting though. Makes it harder to decide, makes his NEED for essence more terrifying.

[Yerameyahu]

Are they more dangerous after feeding? They're at 'full power', perhaps, but that could simply mean 'not starving'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anyway, certainly house rule whatever you want for your game. The rules don't make much sense: the boost power is wonky and the starvation rate is *way* too slow, for starters.

[hyzmarca]

There are several ways you can adjust it. You could, for example, interpret it so that a vampire can feed even when he has full essence but any extra points are lost.

You could rule that he can boost his attributes at any time regardless of when he last fed.

Or you could do it the SR3 way and port over Enhanced Physical Attributes, which would make vampires some of scariest motherfraggers in the game. Of course, this option makes using vampire PCs impossible (or just stupid).

[Stahlseele]

Technically, they should be LESS dangerous at full essence and more . .
Because they are NOT starvin' marvin anymore.
Just like a Tiger is more dangerous the more hungry he gets.
And if he is full, he is much more lazy and less likely to get up and kill you.
Because: "Hey, i just ate, go away, let me sleep. If i ill you now, you'll go bad before i am hungry again"

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, Stahlseele. If anything, vampire/nosferatu should have a 'food coma' lethargy during the post-feeding period. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Omenowl]

I would simply allow a player to spend Essence for stat boost at anytime. When it wears off he only regains half of that spent. He is still capped to 18 Essence and anything in excess is lost and the character could not go above the augmented maximum. I wouldn't let the player increase magic though.

[Starmage21]

I would simply allow a player to spend Essence for stat boost at anytime. When it wears off he only regains half of that spent. He is still capped to 18 Essence and anything in excess is lost and the character could not go above the augmented maximum. I wouldn't let the player increase magic though.

The recent feeding requirement is really important for PCs. NPCs can have whatever Deus Ex Machinas they want and you can chalk it up to planning ahead, but for PCs... PCs might actually have a time requirement or some other constraint that would make (ab)using the stat boost function of Essence Drain less than ideal.

[TygerTyger]

For one thing, they're just bad rules and bad PCs, but I understand you're dead set on being Nosferatu as a first-ever character. If you think that the primary point of the power is to get cool bonuses, then yes, it could seem odd. If you think the point of the power is to steal Essence, though…

Good points. Though I am not playing a nosferatu, though I have a player that wants to. Didn't say anything about me playing one.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I'd read that in the other thread. You're the GM, so you're as involved as anyone. It was easier to say 'you', because you used 'we' in the OP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sephiroth]

On Monday, a nosferatu drains a security guard of all his essence, which kills him. He spends the six essence boosting his Magic attribute. Twelve hours later, he gets three back, which he can't use for anything. If he does this six times in a six month period his essence is capped out at eighteen (which is nice) but he can't use it for anything. Six months after his first feeding, one point goes away... So if he waits three years or so, he might have an ability that is actually useful again.

That seems to be a problem for me. Unless we are mis-reading the power, like I said, we're new to this.

Who says the returned essence can't be used for anything? The power states that if a critter with the power drains a point of Essence within the past hour, he can use the stolen life force to boost his attributes. That doesn't exactly mean that specific point of essence drained, because practically all of the critter's essence is stolen, you see? Then with that point of Essence he can boost an attribute up 2 points, using the other three Essence as well. You can still do this even if the critter is capped at 12/18 Essence. It doesn't matter if the essence you've drained in the past hour was lost as overflow; you've still drained Essence, so you can boost your attributes with it.

Does that solve your problem?

[TygerTyger]

Who says the returned essence can't be used for anything? The power states that if a critter with the power drains a point of Essence within the past hour, he can use the stolen life force to boost his attributes. That doesn't exactly mean that specific point of essence drained, because practically all of the critter's essence is stolen, you see? Then with that point of Essence he can boost an attribute up 2 points, using the other three Essence as well. You can still do this even if the critter is capped at 12/18 Essence. It doesn't matter if the essence you've drained in the past hour was lost as overflow; you've still drained Essence, so you can boost your attributes with it.

Does that solve your problem?

Well, the wording of the power (at least in the 20thA version of the rules I have) seems to imply that the essence that can be used is the essence you just ate... but I can see how either could be interpreted.

And my interpretation is that you can only drain essence to your top level... the power says "The Essence Drain power allows a being to drain the Essence from another character, adding drained Essence to the critter’s own." That seems to imply, if not say outright, that you can only take it if you can add it to yours.

Maybe that's just my interpretation, but its good enough for me. With that in mind then, you eventually get to a point where you have 18 essence, which puts us right back to square one. But we're discussing it in our group... something tells me no one will be happy, but we'll work something out.

[Sephiroth]

Well, the wording of the power (at least in the 20thA version of the rules I have) seems to imply that the essence that can be used is the essence you just ate... but I can see how either could be interpreted.

And my interpretation is that you can only drain essence to your top level... the power says "The Essence Drain power allows a being to drain the Essence from another character, adding drained Essence to the critter’s own." That seems to imply, if not say outright, that you can only take it if you can add it to yours.

Maybe that's just my interpretation, but its good enough for me. With that in mind then, you eventually get to a point where you have 18 essence, which puts us right back to square one. But we're discussing it in our group... something tells me no one will be happy, but we'll work something out.

Infected characters with
Essence Drain can only maintain siphoned Essence equal to twice
its natural maximum (from 6 to 12). Any Essence Drained above
that point is simply lost.

Emphasis mine. You can indeed drain Essence when your own Essence is already capped; it's just that you don't actually receive that Essence. But you can still drain it when at your cap. Does THAT solve your problem?

[TygerTyger]

Nice! And no, it doesn't solve the problem, but it does raise another option.

Groovy. That's why this place is good, the experienced folks helping out the neophytes.

[Tyro]

Nice! And no, it doesn't solve the problem, but it does raise another option.

Groovy. That's why this place is good, the experienced folks helping out the neophytes.

One of many reasons. It's also good for insomniacs like me to have something to do until we get sleepy.

[darthmord]

Nice! And no, it doesn't solve the problem, but it does raise another option.

Groovy. That's why this place is good, the experienced folks helping out the neophytes.

How doesn't it solve the problem? You drain, you get to spend. I've read it a couple of times and I see it like so...

PC drains target for 1+ Essence.
PC can then spend Essence to buff up.
PC gets 1/2 of what was spent back a while later.
PC eventually gets filled to capacity.
Rinse & repeat.

Seems to me that the act of draining Essence is what allows for spending Essence to buff. Any drained over the cap is simply lost. So if the Nosferatu is at 18 Essence, good for him. He can still drain and buff as required. His ability to drain doesn't go away simply because he's at his Essence cap. It just means he cannot store any further Essence.

[Neraph]

The best way to interpret it is to say that within 1 hour of feeding, the creature can spend essence from his total. So if a Nosferatu feeds on monday and kills a guard, getting 6 essence, for a total of 11, he can then spend 10 of it within 1 hour. 12 Hours later, after his buff wears off, he regains 5. A Nosferatu on a full tank, in this fashion, could gain a total attribute bump of +8 points to split among physical attributes and magic.

Why is this cool? lines up with stories/tv shows that say vampires are more dangerous after theyve fed.

Why is this scary to GMs? GMs are always afraid of big numbers, but if you bump your magic by 6-8 points from a "full-tank boost", youre still limited by the amount of drain you can absorb (and so even if you do throw that "nuke" powerball at force 20, its probably going to kill you, and a grenade still couldve done the job better).

I use an interpretation very similar to this, but when you Essence Drain you unlock all your Essence to be used. This allows a Nosferatu to get a boost of 9, not 8. It should be noted that the Essence isn't lost and then regained - it is locked and then half is lost, so for the duration of a +9 Magic boost you still have 18 Essence, you simply can't use it for anything else, then at the end of 12 hours you lose 9 and retain 9.

toturi is actually correct at this point - I simply thought that the RAW does not in fact make Infected as scary as they are supposed to be. So I made them worse in my games. Nothing like having to fight a Magic 14 Blood Mage Nosferatu or a Magic 10 Adept Vampire (both of which are doable in 400 BP builds).

[Yerameyahu]

Unrelated to anything, why do they get to keep half? It seems to add a lot of confusion and complexity, and it only makes them *less* dependent on actually using their power. The bastards. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)