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> Monkey paws and Gymnastics dodge, +2 to dodging... or not ?
Quake
post Feb 6 2011, 10:19 PM
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According to the text of the Metagenetic Quality (RC, p.114) :

QUOTE
Monkey Paws
The character possesses monkey- or chameleon-like gripping feet with elongated, prehensile toes that enable her to climb more easily when barefoot. Add a +2 dice pool modifier to non-tumbling Gymnastics and Climbing tests and also to any movement Tests made in micro-gravity.
The character must have shoes that accommodate this unusual physique.

(emphasis mine)

... and assuming one has shoes that accommodate this unusual physique, does Monkey Paws give a +2 bonus to Gymnastics dodge tests ?

SR4A (p.160) says the following about gym. dodge :

QUOTE
Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.


Even if Monkey Paws's fluff text mentions 'climbing' (which is a seperate skill), having monkey feet/hands could help one flip around by using his hands for various dodging attempts. But even if it doesn't specify 'tumbling', this sounds a bit like tumbling, eh ?

QUOTE
Gymnastics (Agility)
Gymnastics involves acrobatics feats and balance as well as jumping, vaulting, and tumbling. [...]
Specializations: Balance, Breakfall, Dance, Jumping, Parkour, Tumbling

(emphasis mine)

There is no explicit mention of a specialization for Gymnastics Dodge, so does this fall into the tumbling category ?

What do you guys think ? Can one take Monkey Paws to increase his Gymnastics Dodge ?
For the same reason, does it also apply to jumping, dance, balance, breakfall, parkour ?


--

Side commentary : Coming from D&D 3.0/3.5, which had more than 80 core/supplement books, a hundred magazines, etc. I'm finding Shadowrun's RAW to be quite ambiguous in comparison (despite the greater number or loopholes optimizers managed to find out in D&D 3.5). The Balance Augmenter earware has caused me the same interrogations : "all tests involving balance, such as climbing, walking across a narrow platform, landing after a jump, and so on" (emphasis mine). What's this "and so on" !?
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Glyph
post Feb 6 2011, 10:27 PM
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I would say no. In fact, I really think the bonus is defined too broadly as it is. I don't see it giving a gymnastics bonus to anything but balance tests.
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Fatum
post Feb 6 2011, 11:35 PM
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QUOTE (Quake @ Feb 7 2011, 01:19 AM) *
What do you guys think ? Can one take Monkey Paws to increase his Gymnastics Dodge ?
I'd say no, unless the character is in an environment that could be somewhat useful - like actually climbing or in a room with a web of wires criss-crossing it in every direction.

QUOTE (Quake @ Feb 7 2011, 01:19 AM) *
For the same reason, does it also apply to jumping, dance, balance, breakfall, parkour ?
Of course not, yes (depending on style), probably yes, yes and yes.

QUOTE (Quake @ Feb 7 2011, 01:19 AM) *
The Balance Augmenter earware has caused me the same interrogations : "all tests involving balance, such as climbing, walking across a narrow platform, landing after a jump, and so on" (emphasis mine). What's this "and so on" !?
It's "you're the game master for a reason, use your own judgment where such a device could be useful".
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InfinityzeN
post Feb 6 2011, 11:52 PM
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You have got to be kidding me... where is my whole stack of books to smack you with.
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Quake
post Feb 7 2011, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Feb 7 2011, 12:52 AM) *
You have got to be kidding me... where is my whole stack of books to smack you with.


/dodge.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

--

Well, common sense must be used sometimes, I agree, like when the rules don't mention obvious things : your character starts the game 'alive', he/she breathes, food means edible food, breathing implies oxygen and NOT ammoniac fumes, etc. But exceptional rules that carry modifiers from baseline 'realism' have to be explicit, and not treated as pretty fluff if it involves significant dice bonuses that people might interpret in a favorable way for them. ("Ogre stomach and ghouls" gave us a good exemplary debate that is caused by such conflicting interpretations.) Grey areas will always exist, and excruciatingly precise rules are boring to read, but clarity doesn't always involve length. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In this case, it was a honest interpretation.
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Udoshi
post Feb 7 2011, 01:38 AM
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Common sense, No.

Rules- FU: Yes.
Why? Synthcardium adds to all Athletics tests. Athletics is a skill group, which includes Gymnastics. Thus, Synthcardium adds to Gymnastics tests.
You roll Gymnastics when you full gym-dodge. Therefore, you get the synthcardium bonus.
Its also worth noting that Enhanced Articulation adds to Gymdodgingbut not regular Dodging, in a similiar manner.
Anything else which adds to gymnastics is handled the same way - if it adds to gymnastics, and you roll gymnastics, you get the bonus.

That being said, if you can make a breakdancing ninja monkey....
Go for broke, dude.

Just remember that gymdodging doesn't help you in a car. Thats regular dodge.
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Quake
post Feb 7 2011, 02:07 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 7 2011, 02:38 AM) *
Common sense, No.

Rules- FU: Yes.
Why? Synthcardium adds to all Athletics tests. Athletics is a skill group, which includes Gymnastics. Thus, Synthcardium adds to Gymnastics tests.
You roll Gymnastics when you full gym-dodge. Therefore, you get the synthcardium bonus.
Its also worth noting that Enhanced Articulation adds to Gymdodgingbut not regular Dodging, in a similiar manner.
Anything else which adds to gymnastics is handled the same way - if it adds to gymnastics, and you roll gymnastics, you get the bonus.

That being said, if you can make a breakdancing ninja monkey....
Go for broke, dude.

Just remember that gymdodging doesn't help you in a car. Thats regular dodge.


Where does it say that Gym. Dodge is non-functional in tight quarters, and where does it exclude Dodge from the same fate ? (Or do you mean : Dodge helps your vehicle and you dodge stuff ?)
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toturi
post Feb 7 2011, 02:29 AM
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I think there is sufficient ambigiuity for your GM to rule it either way.

This is actually an issue that is larger than Monkey Paws. For example, if a character has a Gymnastics specialisation of Parkour, does he get his specialisation dice for Gym Dodge? Depending on how the GM answers this, I think the Monkey Paws issue should be ruled in a like fashion.
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Whipstitch
post Feb 7 2011, 05:08 AM
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I allow it, although I understand why people dislike it. Gymnastic Dodge frankly beats the pants off of regular Dodge in most of the ways that count-- After all, Improved Ability is cheaper than Improved Combat Ability and Synthacardium is crazy good. But rather than nerf Gym Dodge I handled the situation by taking regular Dodge and the Improved Combat Ability-Improved Ability distinction out back and putting them out of their misery.

So, in my games being magically better at gunfighting costs the same as being better at sneaking. Getting out of the way of attacks requires flashing some athleticism or using close combat skills to handle a melee attacker. The last bit is important, since I don't allow people to use Gymnastics twice vs. melee on Full Defense like you could with Dodge. That means that being the best in the world at fending off a melee attacker requires that you actually know how to fight a little. Crazy, I know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Anyway, it's hardly a huge deal and I can understand why people would think my li'l houserule is unnecessary. But, with that said, if you want to make melee more attractive, you should give it a whirl. Without having Dodge as a one-size-fits-all defense around anymore people tend to give Unarmed a second look.
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Summerstorm
post Feb 7 2011, 07:48 AM
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Just looking at the description of monkey paw: No.

"Add a +2 dice pool modifier to non-tumbling Gymnastics and Climbing tests", and what is gymnastic dodge if not tumbling?

I COULD see a gm give you the bonus in special circumstances though (or to negate a penalty other might get for dodging on special terrain, or like in microgravity, or while levitating along a ridge or something - because there it makes sense.)
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toturi
post Feb 7 2011, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Feb 7 2011, 03:48 PM) *
Just looking at the description of monkey paw: No.

"Add a +2 dice pool modifier to non-tumbling Gymnastics and Climbing tests", and what is gymnastic dodge if not tumbling?

If you do rule it that way and following that logic, you'd have to give someone with the tumbling specialisation more dice when using Gymnastic Dodge.
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Cain
post Feb 7 2011, 10:03 AM
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There's also no rule saying the specializations are exclusive-- that you can't invent new ones as befits your character. Dodge is a valid specialization of gymnastics.
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Machiavelli
post Feb 7 2011, 11:23 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 7 2011, 10:48 AM) *
If you do rule it that way and following that logic, you'd have to give someone with the tumbling specialisation more dice when using Gymnastic Dodge.
I do. Basically every specialization of the gymnastics-skill works wonderful with dodging. Why not?
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Udoshi
post Feb 7 2011, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (Quake @ Feb 6 2011, 07:07 PM) *
Where does it say that Gym. Dodge is non-functional in tight quarters, and where does it exclude Dodge from the same fate ? (Or do you mean : Dodge helps your vehicle and you dodge stuff ?)


The latter. Vehicle defense pools don't include Gymnastics as part of the roll. Dodge and piloting are used, tho.
might be on the 'common roles for riggers' table.

QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 7 2011, 03:03 AM) *
There's also no rule saying the specializations are exclusive-- that you can't invent new ones as befits your character. Dodge is a valid specialization of gymnastics.


this is further clarified in the faq - you can have almost any specialization you want.
Gymdodge spec is awesome, because it applies equally to ranged and melee attacks, which is something the other skills/specs can't do.
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InfinityzeN
post Feb 7 2011, 12:50 PM
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Gymdodge however can only be used on an active defense (rather than passive defense) and only adds once along with another skill to your melee active defense pool. That is RAW.
Also, if your the GM you can always say that a Gymdodge isn't a Gymnastics roll. Why? Because Gymnastics is a pool add on, rather than the base skill. That is also RAW.
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Udoshi
post Feb 8 2011, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Feb 7 2011, 05:50 AM) *
Gymdodge however can only be used on an active defense (rather than passive defense) and only adds once along with another skill to your melee active defense pool. That is RAW.
Also, if your the GM you can always say that a Gymdodge isn't a Gymnastics roll. Why? Because Gymnastics is a pool add on, rather than the base skill. That is also RAW.


While i might agree with you from a balance perspective.....

I'm calling bollocks. Your assertion is nowhere near RAW, and I dare you to put your quote where your mouth it.

Hint: you addon-theory falls apart in ranged defense scenarios.
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toturi
post Feb 8 2011, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Feb 7 2011, 07:23 PM) *
I do. Basically every specialization of the gymnastics-skill works wonderful with dodging. Why not?

One way to interpret the lack of an explicit Dodge specialisation for Gymnastics is that there is no specialisation for Gymnastics Dodge.

Another would be that those explicit specialisations would apply situationally when the character would normally get the specialisation bonus even if he wasn't using gymnastics dodge.

There is a lack of a clear example in the books to demonstrate how specialisations for Gymnastics interact with Gymnastic Dodge.
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Glyph
post Feb 8 2011, 02:53 AM
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Given the flavor text of "flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc.", I would say gymnastics dodge would use the tumbling specialization, if any (although if you allow a parkour specialization, that would probably be close enough, too).
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InfinityzeN
post Feb 8 2011, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 7 2011, 07:19 PM) *
While i might agree with you from a balance perspective.....

I'm calling bollocks. Your assertion is nowhere near RAW, and I dare you to put your quote where your mouth it.

Hint: you addon-theory falls apart in ranged defense scenarios.


Actually no. Read Gymnastics Dodge. In fact, by the way it is written your GM doesn't have to let you add anything by your Gymnastics skill (ignoring all 'ware, etc) if they choose. Of course, that would be a real d*ck thing to do, even if the RAW says "may add their Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against ether ranged or melee attacks.". It is clearly stated as a dice pool add-on to your (passive) defense dice pool.

Hint: Insults do not help you get your point across.

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Whipstitch
post Feb 8 2011, 09:24 PM
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I don't think it's clearly stated that way at all. Gymnastics Dodge is a form of full defense. It is listed as a full defense option in its own right, in the same manner as full dodge and full parry. The first line of Full Dodge is stated thus: "Character on full defense may add their Dodge skill to their dice pool when defending against incoming attacks," a statement which is not functionally different from the manner in which you yourself just defined the use of Gymnastics. There is no reason why Gymnastics cannot be the only skill you use while on Full Defense, something which seems rather at odds with the claim that it is not the skill used for the test but rather a dice pool modifier of some sort.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 8 2011, 09:32 PM
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Sounds fine. Then there's none of the Athletics abuse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Udoshi
post Feb 8 2011, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Feb 8 2011, 05:50 AM) *
Hint: Insults do not help you get your point across.


There's a -big- difference between insulting someone, and calling someone's facts out as being wrong. Yours happen to be, and i'll show you why.

QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Feb 8 2011, 05:50 AM) *
Actually no. Read Gymnastics Dodge. In fact, by the way it is written your GM doesn't have to let you add anything by your Gymnastics skill (ignoring all 'ware, etc) if they choose. Of course, that would be a real d*ck thing to do, even if the RAW says "may add their Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against ether ranged or melee attacks.". It is clearly stated as a dice pool add-on to your (passive) defense dice pool.


I'm bolding your quote to show what i'm responding to.

The problem with your interpretation is this: Full Dodge is worded the same way. For a rule to hold water, it has to apply in all situations equally.
Congrats, you just broke dodging too, as whipstitch has pointed out.

Additionally, the point i was trying to make with ranged defense...
How is Reaction + Gymnastics NOT a gymnastics test?
Also, define an 'add-on' within the rules. What counts as it? How do the rules work with it? Page # and reference, please? Why would ware not count for some reason?

Seriously. Infinity's entire entire arguement is 'the gm could dick you over'. Thats not good rules-fu.


QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 7 2011, 07:30 PM) *
There is a lack of a clear example in the books to demonstrate how specialisations for Gymnastics interact with Gymnastic Dodge.

Addressed in the FAQ - players are at liberty to make their own Specializations. Thus, the gymdodge specialty can exist.
I would think that a specialty for a defensive skill, its handled just like the others.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 8 2011, 11:55 PM
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I still don't see the problem. Full Defense is Reaction + Dodge (skill). Or Melee, or Unarmed, or Gymnastics. Just leave out Athletics and everything else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hell, mix and match for melee, as long as you use two skill-ratings.
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Whipstitch
post Feb 9 2011, 12:11 AM
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I'm kinda fuzzy on what leaving out Athletics has to do with this since Gymnastics is in the Athletics group and I'm not terribly bright. At any rate, I'm totally open to the idea that I'm backwards on this, I just take issue with the idea that it's terribly clear by RAW though. I'm AFB right now, but last I remember looking into this issue the text paints one picture rather loosely and then the example tables paint another. The SR4 book isn't the worst written RPG book I own by a long shot, but there have been times where I've been tempted to toss it out the window.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 9 2011, 12:17 AM
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I'm just talking about the standard Synthcardium dodge tactic: '+3 Athletics, Gymnastics is Athletics, therefore it's a dodge bonus.' The bonus is for "Athletics tests" and it's easy enough to say that Full Defense only uses Gymnastics (or whatever else) *skill*. This is the same as the OP: monkey paws are +2 Gymnastics "tests".

Specializations are fine, because (whatever logical discrepancies) the book makes it clear that you can specialize Dodge.
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