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> Firing into a Crowd, Unintended Targets
Eratosthenes
post Feb 10 2011, 06:07 PM
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Are there rules for firing, and missing, and hitting a bystander?

What about firing into a crowd, with no intentions for hitting a particular target?

What about firing a wide burst into a crowd?

Suppression fire?
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Mardrax
post Feb 10 2011, 06:14 PM
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No, no, kinda but not what you're looking for, yes.

A long burst may hit up to 3 separate targets, as long as they are within a meter of eachother, if the shooter so chooses.

Suppression hits anyone in the targetted area, who is not prone or behind cover, and antone who finds himself in such a situation between the initiation of suppressing, and the shooter's next IP.

Both of these are found on SR4a pg 154.
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Game2BHappy
post Feb 10 2011, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Feb 10 2011, 01:07 PM) *
Are there rules for firing, and missing, and hitting a bystander?

Not that I know of, but I can tell you that my players regularly ask about that. I think they have a sick desire to see bystanders get shot (especially when shooting at someone engaged in melee).
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Mardrax
post Feb 10 2011, 06:20 PM
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You could also rule someone inside of a crowd having Partial or even Good Cover.
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ProfGast
post Feb 10 2011, 06:27 PM
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One of the Denver Missions (The Grab) has a scene with a possible in-crowd fight. Details glitches to hit bystanders and the like. Or you can maybe use modified Food fight rules with a rolling table for what you end up hitting if you miss. As far as burst fire or full auto modes, only suppressive fire really goes into hitting multiple targets. You'd have to houserule for wide/narrow bursts.
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Wesley Street
post Feb 10 2011, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (ProfGast @ Feb 10 2011, 01:27 PM) *
Or you can maybe use modified Food fight rules with a rolling table for what you end up hitting if you miss.

Oooooooh... that's a sweet idea! I love me some random destruction tables... Time to get to work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Eratosthenes
post Feb 10 2011, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (ProfGast @ Feb 10 2011, 01:27 PM) *
Or you can maybe use modified Food fight rules with a rolling table for what you end up hitting if you miss.


On a 1, you hit Betty, the adorable 20-something secretary for one of the big 10.
On a 2, you hit that stupid courier who cut you off last Tuesday.
On a 3, you've nailed Tommy O'Connors, formerly a mafioso turned politician.
On a 4, you've shot Pamela. No idea who she is.
On a 5, you hit the First Seattle Bank ATM.
On a 6, you hit that troll over there. He looks pissed.

Something like that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I figured I'd make an Edge test for people in the crowd, threshold based on how thick and heavy the lead was flying. Or a Dodge test for those actively avoiding the fire, and in a space where they can get away (like on the peripheries).
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Stahlseele
post Feb 10 2011, 07:59 PM
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"A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnell is titled:'to whom it concerns'"
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Garou
post Feb 10 2011, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 10 2011, 07:59 PM) *
"A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnell is titled:'to whom it concerns'"


Quoted for pure truth. Signatured.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 10 2011, 08:34 PM
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This is really always up to the GM. The rules can't cover everything, especially things about people who by definition don't matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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CanRay
post Feb 11 2011, 08:23 AM
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I like the Deadlands rules for stray bullets. For every person that there's the possibility of hitting, you roll a D6. It comes up 1, guess who just got unlucky.

I call it "The Little Suzy Stray Bullet" rule. My Deadlands group hated that rule. I haven't implemented it for Shadowrun yet, but might suggest it to the GM who is trying to get a group together (If he succeeds) if the issue comes up.

I'd also allow the option of an Edge Test to prevent the bullet from being serious, and just a "Flesh Wound". Bad enough, but still... Beats the alternative.
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Aerospider
post Feb 11 2011, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2011, 08:34 PM) *
This is really always up to the GM. The rules can't cover everything, especially things about people who by definition don't matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This. There is no limit to the house rules, random outcome tables and fiddly mechanics one can introduce to leave less and less of the game in the power of the story-teller, but every so often the GM needs to step back and ask "What does my group actually want from roleplaying?".

It may be that you're all about the game element, enjoying the structure of the mechanics and the purity of random elements. In this case more dice, more rolls and less narrative dictation is generaly a good thing as it grants the players more opportunity to game the system, by which I mean play according to the crunch rather than the fluff. Players in this category tend (as a generalisation) towards power gaming and forsake their character's character in favour of chasing elements they covet whether they fit the setting/story/character or not. This is not a bad thing in and of itself.

The other half of the spectrum is being interested in the story-telling. In some systems the mechanics are so loose that the GM will make many decisions himself because it's just not important exactly how much, how far, how often (etc.) something happens. Shadowrun is relatively mechanics-heavy and this will often encourage players and GMs to use more mechanics than RAW provides, but I think it is more commonly profitable to instead ignore existing mechanics when trying to match the system to the group's vision of the setting/story/character.

So the samurai fires on a fleeing enemy in a crowded street and doesn't hit. You could easily conceive of up to three more rolls to the test to determine how many bystanders get hit, how badly and how well they resist. Or, you could just rule o' thumb it and decide yourself based on how crowded it is.

Whether you're rolling or whether you aren't, you're going to end up with some kind of outcome. Does it matter that you didn't give all the possible outcomes a chance? Often yes because usually what is going on directly affects the player's character and you need to let them own that, but sometimes all that is required is for the GM to provide what the scene needs from his own imagination and nothing more. Perhaps all that is required is a little extra colour (e.g. describe the people who get hit and how the crowd reacts), perhaps the game would benefit more from some fallout/feedback effect (a stray shot clips an incognito Yakuza's shoulder ... weapons are drawn) but do you always need the Gods of Chance to decide it for you? Definitely not. Remember that the GM is not another player. If he tells you something that dice could have told you, you haven't really lost anything. The story still gets told.
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Wesley Street
post Feb 11 2011, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Feb 10 2011, 02:57 PM) *
On a 1, you hit Betty, the adorable 20-something secretary for one of the big 10.
On a 2, you hit that stupid courier who cut you off last Tuesday.
On a 3, you've nailed Tommy O'Connors, formerly a mafioso turned politician.
On a 4, you've shot Pamela. No idea who she is.
On a 5, you hit the First Seattle Bank ATM.
On a 6, you hit that troll over there. He looks pissed.


Here's something I knocked together for my current game. Roll a D6 for each table:

RANDOM PEDESTRIAN ENCOUNTER CHART
Note: Assume setting is a cosmopolitan city with a diverse ethnic population. If not, tailor to your needs.

D6 Gender
1-3 Male
4-6 Female

D6 Age
1-3 Adult
4 Geriatric
5 Teen
6 Child

D6 Metatype
1 Human
2 Human
3 Ork
4 Elf
5 Dwarf
6 Troll

D6 Fashion
1 Gang inspired
2 Casual jeans & tee, "flats" or hobo chic
3 Corporate wear or high formal
4 (Neo)ethnic or (neo)tribal
5 Military inspired
6 Techno inspired

D6 Hair
1 Bald/shaved
2 Short
3 Wild
4 Tinted
5 Long
6 Mowhawk, spike, bio-implant or other extreme

D6 Ethnicity
1 Anglo
2 African
3 Chinese, Japanese or other East Asian
4 European or Hispanic
5 Semitic or West Asian
6 Amerind or Native Aboriginal

D6 Affectation
1 Tattoos or nanotattoos
2 Decorative scarring or tribal jewelry
3 Decorative implants or 'ware
4 Full body dye
5 Weird eyes or mirrorshades
6 Advertising or personal holograms
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Eratosthenes
post Feb 11 2011, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Feb 11 2011, 08:06 AM) *
Whether you're rolling or whether you aren't, you're going to end up with some kind of outcome. Does it matter that you didn't give all the possible outcomes a chance? Often yes because usually what is going on directly affects the player's character and you need to let them own that, but sometimes all that is required is for the GM to provide what the scene needs from his own imagination and nothing more. Perhaps all that is required is a little extra colour (e.g. describe the people who get hit and how the crowd reacts), perhaps the game would benefit more from some fallout/feedback effect (a stray shot clips an incognito Yakuza's shoulder ... weapons are drawn) but do you always need the Gods of Chance to decide it for you? Definitely not. Remember that the GM is not another player. If he tells you something that dice could have told you, you haven't really lost anything. The story still gets told.


With nameless NPC's, I'm all for just saying "oh, three people got hit, two seriously". It's when the PC's are in the crowd (or doing the shooting) that I feel the need to have some deterministic way to, well, determine if they (or their targets) get hit. The whole reason there are rules is to prevent bias. The whole game, technically, could be played via GM fiat/storytelling, but inevitably players would feel that things aren't 'fair', they're being picked on, or whatever. Random chance tends to be more egalitarian.

In other words, I agree with you, but sometimes I do want the Gods of Chance to decide for me. I know I can be biased, or counter-biased in trying not to be biased. And if it's something that should be left to chance, what's the best way to let chance describe it?

Besides, sometimes it's fun to let a player get lucky, or unlucky. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Sixgun_Sage
post Feb 11 2011, 03:14 PM
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Generally I tend to treat mobs of hapless mooks as stage dressing, and if one is hit they tend to drop. It saves on math and keeps the game flowing while allowing me to get in a bit of descriptive fun. "No, your bullet does not fly off in to the wall, atleast not before going through the soydog hutt girl's head, painting what you would have to assume is her boyfriend with her brains."
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Mardrax
post Feb 11 2011, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Feb 11 2011, 02:38 PM) *
RANDOM PEDESTRIAN ENCOUNTER CHART

A 2d6 system would far better be able to emulate demographic diversity. A d%would be best. Trolls are not in any way 1/6 of the population in any locale except Schwarzwald.
Yes, it's tedious, but rolling 7 times to get some results tends to be tedious by default.
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Wesley Street
post Feb 11 2011, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 11 2011, 10:37 AM) *
A 2d6 system would far better be able to emulate demographic diversity. A d%would be best. Trolls are not in any way 1/6 of the population in any locale except Schwarzwald.
Yes, it's tedious, but rolling 7 times to get some results tends to be tedious by default.

You can worry about demographic diversity or you can get quick results. If you think you're getting too many trolls just skip that step and make it a human or ork automatically.

Are you really going to worry that your PCs have statistically splattered too many cans of Cherry Flavored Doggy-Moon Zap and Serve Meat Substitute? That's way too anal for a quick gun battle.
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Mardrax
post Feb 11 2011, 05:12 PM
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No, I'm worried about reinforcing the image that some people (GMs and players alike) seem to have that trolls and mages make up more than 2% of the average country's population, since 85% of every runner team will have at least one, not to mention 80% of groups they encounter. If 16,7% of random shootings will include either as well, this just reinforces it.
I was mostly just trying to bait the "quick results" argument though, since really, rolling 7 dice and looking up respective results in tables is the antithesis of quick results if you ask me. While one of the things SR could do with far less of IMHO is number crunching and dice rolling. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Still, if you think you can make it work, go for it, by all means. ^_^
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Wesley Street
post Feb 11 2011, 05:58 PM
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QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 11 2011, 12:12 PM) *
I was mostly just trying to bait the "quick results" argument though, since really, rolling 7 dice and looking up respective results in tables is the antithesis of quick results if you ask me.


I have quick hands and eyeballs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If the story demands detail and you can pull details out of your head on the fly, more power to you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Feb 11 2011, 06:11 PM
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Magicians make less than 1% of the population (1% of the population is Awakened, divided among Magicians, Adepts, Mystical Adepts and Astral sighters), the average medical doctor per capita in Europe, is, if I'm not mistaken 3 doctors per 1 thousand people. This means magicians are as rare or a little more rare than doctors in Europe, and I'm pretty sure everyone knows one doctor or two.

Trolls, are, what? 2% of the population? It means there are 7 times more Trolls than doctors in Europe.
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Mardrax
post Feb 11 2011, 07:00 PM
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Everyone knows one doctor or two because they have general physicians.
Do they have general trolls as well? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Trolls tend to work low profile jobs as well, and have little charisma. They don't easily make friends and aren't in a position to do so. There might be more trolls than doctors. but chances are slimmer for knowing Joe Average knowing any personally, I'd think.
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Medicineman
post Feb 11 2011, 08:03 PM
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@Wesley Street

Your Table "Smell " like Cyberpunk 2020 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
The Metatype Table could be:
1-4 Human
5 Ork
6 Other
Subtable other
1-3 Elf
4 Dwarf
5-6 Troll
(thats demographically more correct)

@Topic
Make an Edge Roll for any Pedestrian
If He/She gets 1 or 2 Successes He/She won't get hit

with an Edge Dance
Medicineman
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Wesley Street
post Feb 11 2011, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 11 2011, 03:03 PM) *
Your Table "Smell " like Cyberpunk 2020 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


That's because I pirated pieces of it. If you're going to steal, steal from the best and make it work for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Never actually played the game but it's got plenty of resources to plunder for the 'noir' and 'tech' side of SR.

Also, I like your metatype table structure. I was trying to figure out how to include metavariants but the odds of bumping into one, outside of an in-game reason, are statistically insignificant.

RANDOM PEDESTRIAN ENCOUNTER CHART
Note: Assume setting is a cosmopolitan city with a diverse ethnic population. If not, tailor to your needs.

D6 Gender
1-3 Male
4-6 Female

D6 Age
1-3 Adult
4 Geriatric
5 Teen
6 Child

D6 Metatype
1-4 Human
5 Ork
6 Other (see below)
Other
1-3 Elf
4 Dwarf
5-6 Troll

D6 Fashion
1 Gang inspired
2 Casual jeans & tee, "flats" or hobo chic
3 Corporate wear or high formal
4 (Neo)ethnic or (neo)tribal
5 Military inspired
6 Techno inspired

D6 Hair
1 Bald/shaved
2 Short
3 Wild
4 Tinted
5 Long
6 Mowhawk, spike, bio-implant or other extreme

D6 Ethnicity
1 Anglo
2 African
3 Chinese, Japanese or other East Asian
4 European or Hispanic
5 Semitic or West Asian
6 Amerind or Native Aboriginal

D6 Affectation
1 Tattoos or nanotattoos
2 Decorative scarring or tribal jewelry
3 Decorative implants or 'ware
4 Full body dye
5 Weird eyes or mirrorshades
6 Advertising or personal holograms
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Manunancy
post Feb 11 2011, 08:34 PM
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In that sort of situations I usually uses a straight d100 check - the higher the result, the worse the outcome. There a a 00 would means things like pliking the bikes ot tha pack of troll bikers, o cop car or some ecurity guard. Or maybe some innocent bystander the the PCs are going to feel really bad about. A very low result would mean denting some insignificant scenery nobody will get too pissed about.
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Mardrax
post Feb 11 2011, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Feb 11 2011, 09:23 PM) *
Also, I like your metatype table structure. I was trying to figure out how to include metavariants but the odds of bumping into one, outside of an in-game reason, are statistically insignificant.

Depends on locale, really. In Japan, there are more Oni than regular orks.
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