My bored creation, Since I think all the SR fighters suck Options

[CanRay]

Just because the standard upgrades don't cost mods doesn't mean you should stick in there 3 times the # of mods possible without it costing anything. Have you really not heard of game balance at all?

I don't know, have I? I haven't read War!, so...

And military-grade equipment can often do things that civilian equipment can't. Let's see a Civilian Jet dogfight.

[Doc Chase]

Since everyone seems to be ZOMG! over the number of missiles this thing carries, your missing one very important part of those missiles. They are all man portable size. In fact, the 8 shot missile pack is a single man portable system. This thing does not have any of the heavy missiles that people were listing in what is currently carried. Even the Heimdall is not big, since it is the exact same size as other man portable missiles that can be shot from multi-missile man portable platforms. In fact, the Mitsubishi Yakusok MRL can actually have 8 Heimdall loaded into it.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Think it has two many weapons? Take only 1 pod and 2 drone racks. Most of the other things I added are things an advanced fighter should have.

ECM 10, ECCM 10, Jammer 6, and Lock-On Countermeasures are all things every fighter should have since the cost of them in unnoticeable compared to the cost of the plane. In fact, you should have multiple Lock-On Countermeasures since they are only 6 uses each. (We're talking less than $30,000 with multiple L-O CM)

Reduced Signature (Rtg. 6) and Chameleon Coating are things that every stealth fighter should have since their cost is again unnoticeable compared to the cost of the plane.

Three or four Weapon Mounts (Internal/External, Fixed, Remote) are the current standard for an SR4 fighter, with Ammo Bin being a very cheap addition. For internal missile bays, that is 1 mod slot and $1k per additional missile. I'm talking about the actual large ones, which my above design has none of.

Improved Sensors, Fuzzy Logic, and Satellite Communication are all things that modern fighters all have. Increasing the Pilot program to max ($6k) should be a given on a multi million dollar aircraft.

Multi-Launch Drone Rack are a great buy since the Heimdall is a great missile

Additional Fuel Tank is very common in fighter aircraft today (the Improved Economy however is being a little overboard)

Unstable Structural Agility was used because... there are no fighters with it in SR4 while almost every modern fighter today has it! *GASP*

The crazy rating Commlink is because hacking a vehicle is stupid easy in SR4 *GASP* so you want the best defense against it you can get.


Now that I'm thinking on it, I'm going to update the design by dropping the Mitsubishi Yakusok MRL and Fleche Hail Barrage Rocket Launcher from it, sticking an actual full size missile bay in there (AIM-27 Sparrow Hawk), with 3~4 missiles.

You posted this and expected everyone to fall over gushing? Perhaps you shouldn't be undertaking this project.

[InfinityzeN]

If you failed to notice by the title, I built it because I was bored. Don't like it, why are you here?

You posted this and expected everyone to fall over gushing? Perhaps you shouldn't be undertaking this project.

*EDIT: I'm actually honestly wondering why, not trying to be an ass.

[CanRay]

We're here to berate and abuse each other, and complain about the state of the gaming industry today as opposed to the way it used to be. When it was pure and great and nothing was ever wrong...

Why are you here? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Doc Chase]

If you failed to notice by the title, I built it because I was bored. Don't like it, why are you here?

Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I can't make it into something better.

[InfinityzeN]

OK, lets try to mod an actual fighter. F-B Woodstock as a base. It is pretty much the following.

Hand: +1, Accel: 60/240, Speed: 1920, Pilot: 3, Body: 20, Armor: 12, Senor: 3, Avil: 28F, Cost: $11.5m
Standard Mods: Ejection Seat, Improved Takeoff and Landing (Rtg. 1), Reduced Signature (Rtg. 4), ECM 5, ECCM 5, Jammer 3, 3 Weapon Mounts (internal, fixed, remote)

So we got 20 mod slots to work with. Lets make a list real fast.

Pilot 6: 0 slots, $6k
Unstable Structural Agility: 4 slots, $100k (Handling is now +4)
Multi-Launch Drone Rack: 5 slots, $10k
Additional Fuel: 1 slot, $1k
Lock-On Countermeasures: 1 slot, $5k
Improved Sensors: 1 slot, $1k
8x Additional Ammo: 8 slots, $8k (x4 on each of two weapons mounts)

That is +$131k, bringing us up to $11.631 million. On to weapons systems.

Well, we grab 10 Heimdall ($15k) first off.
Need a gun, so one of the GE Light Autocannon ($5k). Add in 200 rounds of ammo ($50k).
For missiles, lets go with 10 sensor 6 rated AIM-27 ($110k)

That is $180k, bringing us up to $11.811 million. You could buy over 2.75 of these fully armed and fueled for the cost of my design without arms. Not as crazy, but still a nice little package.

*EDIT: We would have to spend a little more on sensors, so figure $120k worth, which will still mean you can buy 2.5 of these fully armed for less then the cost of the fighter I built. Oh, and it will manage to get Sensor 6 from this.

* EDIT EDIT: This is all without wing mounted weapons, which SR4 doesn't do a good job of defining unless someone knows where it is at.

[Wounded Ronin]

This thing seriously has *56* missiles, and 40 rockets!? This isn't a multi-role anything, this is a B-1 Lancer that's had the bomb bay replaced with OMG MOAR MISSILES. I mean, don't get me wrong, I like it, but the F35 can carry *8* missiles, and the F-18 can carry *9* missiles, and shit, the A-10 only carries *11* missiles. Seriously, 1 multi-role drone rack carries 10 Heimdalls? Isn't each heimdall the lenght of a motorcycle, basically?

I would strongly suggest reducing the ammo capacity of this thing.

Yeah, well, you're going to need it when X-Com happens, bub.

[Adarael]

...You know, I was seriously considering running an X-Com type game, set in the Shadowrun world.

Goddamit. Now that idea won't go back to sleep for another month or two.

[CanRay]

"OK folks, bad news, good news, bad news. Bad news: Alien Invasion."

"Drek."

"Good news: No anal probing."

"Dre... I mean, YAY!"

"Bad news: Chryssalids."

"JESUSALLAHBUDDA!"

[Mardrax]

We're here to berate and abuse each other, and complain about the state of the gaming industry today as opposed to the way it used to be. When it was pure and great and nothing was ever wrong...

Why are you here? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Oh, but nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Game balance is not a good point to argue IMHO for things players shouldn't be getting their hands on.

[Manunancy]

One problem with sensors a they are designed is that stealthing is a whole package and doesn't do much to distinguish by sensor types. Vecause there's no way you could make that plane furtive in the IR spectrum.

At mach 2+ you're getting a real concern with the heat rpoudced by air friction over the hull, which mleans the plane will stand out on any decent thermal sensor around. Maybe you can pack some sort of liquid nitrogen tank to act as heat sink, with capillaries running under the skin to keep it cool but it won't hold that long.

Depdning on the mission profile, I'd also add some sort of life support to reflect the fact that if you're flying a nape-of-earth profile at mach 2, you're going to shake and bruise the pilot into incapacity rather quickly.

A real world example would be the french mirage IV - designed for that sort of things but at a lower speed (mach 1 and something), it's not supposed to do it for more than 1/4h - beyodn htat, there's no guaranteee on the pilot's effectiveness.

[Doc Chase]

Oh, but nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Game balance is not a good point to argue IMHO for things players shouldn't be getting their hands on.

I don't expect things to be balanced right off, but I would hope folks don't get their hackles up when balance issues arise. Since vehicles like these are now an alt.War project, I'd rather work with people who can take the edits and criticism without resorting to 'don't like it, don't use it.' That invalidates the purpose of the project.

[sabs]

Game Balance should always be considered when making new items for an RPG. Some creeping mondoism is okay. SOTA is cool, but you have to keep some semblance of balance. You have to leave room for the future.

A weapon system that basically has every stat set to "max" isn't a SoTA, it's a broken munchkin toy.
And saying, it's a design I can ignore modification costs, may be true, but those modification costs are there for a reason. Why does your jetfighter need more processing power than a bank mainframe.

A 'comm system' for a state of the art jet fighter like that would look more like this to me:
Response 7*
Processor Limit: 15
System 5
Firewall 9
Signal 1/Skinlink, Satelite Uplink (7)
Software:
TacSoft 3(or 4), viral resistance, ergonomic
Pilot 6: Viral resistance,
Analyze 8, ergonomic, crashguard, Optimization 3
Attack 6, ergonomic, crashguard, rust, targetting
Armor 8, ergonomic
Clearsoft 6, ergonomic
Adaptability: 3
Targetting: 6
ECCM: 8, crashguard, Optimization 3
Customized Interface
Biometric Lock
Hardening
Simsense Accelerator

* Response degrades unless a monthly maintenance test is made. Logic+Hardware(Response) interval 8 hours

Standard upgrades:
Rigger Adaptation
Rigger Cocoon, enhanced
ECM 10
Drone Rack: Multi Launch 2
Ejection Seats
Additional Fuel Tank
Improved VTOL 2
Life Support 2
Lock On Countermeasures
Signal Masking 6
Chameleon Coating

[InfinityzeN]

The computer looked like that because I did it fast while I was bored. I actually like your computer system design and upgrades list, especially since you include the Lifesupport that I totally missed. *DOH*

[Mardrax]

I don't expect things to be balanced right off, but I would hope folks don't get their hackles up when balance issues arise. Since vehicles like these are now an alt.War project, I'd rather work with people who can take the edits and criticism without resorting to 'don't like it, don't use it.' That invalidates the purpose of the project.

Completely agreed on the attitude, for that purpose. My argument is twofold here:
First, let me note that I don't think InfinityzeN had any intention of having this included in Alt.War anyway. Someone else asked (Brazilian Shinobi, form the top of my head?). He started his own community project. Writing up things for his own use, he's absolutely free to defend things like that.

Second, when the thing in question isn't meant for PC hands (which something costing tens of millions really shouldn't be, IMHO) I don't think cries of 'unbalanced' hold much weight any more. Sure, it can be completely out of synch with any prior established idiosyncracy of the setting (technolgically or sociologically), but that's not imbalance, the way I see it. Just either a lack of keeping things in mind or reading up on them, or a blatant disregard for them in favour of "this is how it should be".
Imbalance, IMHO can only exist in the balance of what players are capable of on an individual bases (that twinked out possession mage is solving all problems by himself, and might as well be running solo), or the balance of that potential gathered, juxtaposed against what the GM throws at them. Of course, an imbalance in the latter should be intentional, so is only in rare cases a bad thing.

I think SotA fighter jets are right there on the level of Thor shots in that they can realistically "solve" a whole lot. And they should be. You let use of them fall into player's hands, you've yourself to blame. You have them be victim of one of them, then they'd better have earned it. You have them play a part in a storyline and hey, they're storyline. Their actual stats won't matter much. "It was an awesome display of power" both suffices and is in synch.

More of a plot device than a vehicle, really. Actual stats seem redundant for the most part, (except for that part saying "Numbers! More numbers!" that is the part of me playing D&D on an off day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Udoshi]

I would strongly suggest reducing the ammo capacity of this thing.

I'd like to point out that Heimdalls have a rather short range - 18 KM at max.

I'd don't know much about the state of Anti-Air missile ranges, but isn't it conceivable that the actual bit, AA warheads on this monster airplane are quite simply larger?

That is to say, heimdalls are actually pretty fricken tiny. As minidrones @ body 1, they are at most 25 centimeters in length. (ars 102).

How inconceivable is it that the plane has a bunch of tiny missiles for general work, and big ones for the real tough work?

[InfinityzeN]

Udoshi, your point out something I brought up earlier. My tweaked design has 5 full size missiles and 20 heimdalls in addition to its cannon.

Mardrax, your are correct in that I did not build this for alt.war or anything else other then because I was bored and thought I would throw something together.