Too much net hits and now? Options

[nielsk]

A player wanted to stun a target with a weapon that does xS-damage. But he had so many net hits that he would have brought the target into the overflow-monitor thus killing it after a few combat rounds. Can he give up net hits for not doing so much damage, therefore only stunning the target successfully?
If yes, where does this stand in the rules (I looked and couldn't find it)?

[Doc Chase]

A player wanted to stun a target with a weapon that does xS-damage. But he had so many net hits that he would have brought the target into the overflow-monitor thus killing it after a few combat rounds. Can he give up net hits for not doing so much damage, therefore only stunning the target successfully?
If yes, where does this stand in the rules (I looked and couldn't find it)?

Maybe he shouldn't be firing those SnS on full auto, then.

You're talking about 11-20+ stun damage off one attack. I'm not sure how often that's going to happen - and if it is, there are likely balance issues that should be looked at first.

[Adarael]

Usually, I'm of the opinion that it depends on two things: intent, and the weapon in question. Long ago I ruled Stunbolt doesn't roll over into physical damage, because back when I started playing it was called "Sleep", not "Choke A Dude Out And Then To Death." An HMG with gel rounds? Yeah, that can kill a guy, because it's a goddamned heavy machine gun. But I figure that a lot of the time when people will have been "killed" by a lucky or accurate shot, that's an artifact of damage being tied to accuracy.

I don't like the idea of someone dying because they *insufficiently dodged a stunbaton*, especially if they have body out the yang or something and just get unlucky.

[nielsk]

Well, girl with no armor, already slightly bruised and low body runs straight away, he aims for three actions, has smart link, a clear line of sight, no distractions, specialization on the weapon skill, high agility score, uses Edge and thus re-rolls 6s (he really really wanted to stun her because they had to bring her in…alive and she running away screaming "rapists, rapists, they tried to rape me" for getting faster help didn't let them much time to think and throw in all they had)

Edit: Let's assume he used an Ares Pred with gel ammo (it was actually capsule round + narcojet but we did a mistake there…anyway - the question is: can one say to use less net hits/hits to not kill someone)

[Yerameyahu]

Taser attacks should be able to accidentally kill someone, especially if that's inconvenient for the PCs. People do die from those all the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Taser attacks should be able to accidentally kill someone, especially if that's inconvenient for the PCs. People do die from those all the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As well as gel shots. It was a bad call on the part of the player/character to sight for three rounds and then blow an Edge if his pool is already high enough he's probably going to snag four net.

[nielsk]

As well as gel shots. It was a bad call on the part of the player/character to sight for three rounds and then blow an Edge if his pool is already high enough he's probably going to snag four net.

The player has usually bad luck - 14 dice and two successes and stuff like that are pretty normal for him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, I agree about the gel rounds. Rubber bullets, similarly, are a serious danger. Remember, these aren't 'nonlethal' weapons. They're 'less-lethal'.

[capt.pantsless]

Well, girl with no armor, already slightly bruised and low body runs straight away, he aims for three actions, has smart link, a clear line of sight, no distractions, specialization on the weapon skill, high agility score, uses Edge and thus re-rolls 6s (he really really wanted to stun her because they had to bring her in.

Personally, I would have allowed them to spend ANOTHER point of edge to negate some of those hits - although a severely wounded target would be a definite.

Restraint is a virtue in the SR world.

[TheOOB]

I would allow characters to give up dice before the test is rolled, but if they kill someone with stun damage, they killed someone with stun damage. Never fire a gun at someone you are not prepared to kill.

[James McMurray]

I would allow characters to give up dice before the test is rolled, but if they kill someone with stun damage, they killed someone with stun damage. Never fire a gun at someone you are not prepared to kill.

This.

[CanRay]

As I've told my group numerous times, "They're called LOW Lethality Weapons, not NON-Lethal Weapons." There's always a risk of killing someone with even the most passive weapons.

Just ask the Mounties that tasered the guy to death because he couldn't speak English or French, and was pissed off at being held for hours on end at an airport because no one could be arsed to get a translator. (And wasn't, BTW, making threatening movements towards anyone, as angels from cameras showed. He was just angry and yelling in a foreign language.).

[Doc Chase]

The player has usually bad luck - 14 dice and two successes and stuff like that are pretty normal for him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

He can pop two if he thinks he's going to roll poorly. Two successes off a gel round is generally going to mean she's going down anyway if she's low bod and already stunned.

[CanRay]

He can pop two if he thinks he's going to roll poorly. Two successes off a gel round is generally going to mean she's going down anyway if she's low bod and already stunned.

Huh, wha's goin' on? *Totally Stunned*

[Ascalaphus]

If the excess of damage is due to getting too many hits on the To-Hit roll... well, more hits suggest succeeding better at what you intended to do. And a superior shooter should be more able to put people to sleep precisely, instead of more likely to accidentally kill them.

How to implement that in rules though.. tricky..

[Raiki]

I would personally, as a GM, allow a player that skilled to buy hits at the standard 4:1 ratio, then use any amount *up to* that number as the total # of hits to apply. That seems like it would solve some of the problem, yes?


~R~

[PoliteMan]

I can't imagine he practiced shooting people just right to knock them out, he practiced shooting to kill, like everyone else. He just used too much force this time. He shot really well, like he trained to, and killed her.

I understand why he'd be mad, and it's counter-intuitive for the player to fail for doing something really well. Remind him that if the target is running away screaming you probably screwed up somewhere before and he just got unlucky trying to cover up their mistake.

[TheOOB]

Sometimes bad things happen in shadowrun, if the player can't handle that, they are playing the wrong system.

Once again, if you point a gun at someone and fire, regardless of what type of ammo you got, you run the risk of killing them.

[Manunancy]

From a descriptive side, I would describe his shoot as striking pefectly at the base of the target's skull - giving the girl the equivalent a powerfull rabbit-punch and giving her some severe concussion (if she was only into oveflow damage) or a broken neck (if she was killed outright).

In my opinion he should have used simple shots - with a simple action for each shot, he would have fired four times at the girl in the same time it took him for his single shot. With less dices to throw each time, odds are he would have knocked her out with probably only a little bit of physical damage.

[phlapjack77]

I think the rules for giving up net hits applied to spells, so that a mage could have less drain for a less "powerful" spell, if the optional rules for direct-combat drain were being used.

I'm going to pile on and say the guy screwed up, them's the breaks. Stuff happens. Seems like the player's bad luck continues (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

It does not help with the current situation, but he could also have called a shot to knock the target out. Besides ignoring armor or doing more damage there is also the option to generate a certain effect. IMHO he could have used that opion to knock her out cold, especially with that much successes.

[Ascalaphus]

As I understand it, the guy made it clear enough (everyone at the table knew it) that he wanted to stun, not kill.

So if he's more skilled, he's less likely to get the intended result? That's stupid. More hits means you did better at what you tried to do.

As for the "trained to kill" argument - I think especially in Law Enforcement, people are also trained to shoot to disable, not always kill. Aiming for legs and arms instead of the chest and such.

As a GM in this case I'd rule that any Critical Success shouldn't be turned against whoever scored it. If he scores 10 hits on shooting to stun, then he stuns that person with finesse and grace.

The standard rule "hits -> damage" is based on the standard assumption that you're trying to achieve maximum damage, not precisely enough damage.

[Summerstorm]

Well, i am using a houserule on this one (That i enforce with mages as well): You can limit your own NETHITS for taking a -2 penalty to the test (Punching more controlled and carefully, monitoring your spells energy carefully, making sure you don't shoot that S-n-S into his eyes...)

Works good so far. In my game that is the only way to reduce chosen nethits for direct attack spells too, and i use the +1 drain per nethit rule.

Works good so far to make it slightly harder to carfully and nonviolent take someone down than to just straight murder him.

[Mäx]

The player has usually bad luck - 14 dice and two successes and stuff like that are pretty normal for him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hasn't he ever heard about using edge to reroll failures, not only is that almost always going to lead to a higher amount of hits in the end then using edge to boost the initial pool, it also means you don't end up needlessly spending edge on a roll that had no need for it and also stop this kinda of situations where you end up getting too many successes.

[MK Ultra]

I would allow characters to give up dice before the test is rolled, but if they kill someone with stun damage, they killed someone with stun damage. Never fire a gun at someone you are not prepared to kill.

This.

Exactly This.

I sometimes warn players that attempt s.th. like this. Usually they dont listen, but at least it reduces their bitching afterwards. My players do that kind of stuff (exidental killing) quiet often (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

One other thing I would alow is Called Shot to reduce Damage (before rolling Bod/Armor, if you play it soft you risk to play too soft), instead of increase Damage.