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> Techno-Shifters, this is clearly wrong...
killfr3nzy
post Feb 15 2011, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (Core 4a @ Pg 93)
Technomancer
Cost: 5 BP
Technomancers can access and manipulate the Matrix through
their own sheer force of will (see Technomancers, p. 239). Known as
otaku prior to the Crash of 2064, technomancers have emerged among
all walks of life since the advent of augmented reality.
A character must purchase this quality in order to be a technomancer
and will start with a Resonance attribute of 1. This may be increased
like any other attribute, up to a maximum of 6 (see Purchase
Attributes, p. 83). A character with this quality cannot take the Adept,
Magician, or Mystic Adept qualities.
Technomancers have a living persona—their Matrix alter ego—
with its own separate set of attributes that govern virtual actions in
the Matrix. The Resonance attribute, combined with certain other attributes,
determines how strong (or weak) the persona is.


So... Shifters/Vampires/etc are legal? Huh, first rumours of Techno-pets and now TECHNO-DRAGON!
The world will never be the same.

Ok, yes, this is insane, and no doubt errata'd/explained more clearly elsewhere, but the Trait description and the Technomancer section both say nothing about having a Magic score preventing entry. It could almost, almost make sense if they made a decision on if Resonance was/was not a breed of Magic.
But yeah, there it is. Point me to the rules banning this and put my mind at rest, so I can continue choose between a Shifter-rigger or Dronomancer build for my crazy single-drone assassin living in a bunker under the desert, with a 'body' in each major city of the world. Because if this is legal...I can take my cake, and not just simply eat it, but gnaw onwards through the bake-ways of the planet until all the cakiness in the world cowers beneath my icing-smeared grasp.

Sorry, overtired and m'thoughts are going a little crazy; that was supposed to say 'The last thing preventing total Technomancer dominance is gone.'
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Fortinbras
post Feb 15 2011, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (killfr3nzy @ Feb 15 2011, 12:14 PM) *
So... Shifters/Vampires/etc are legal? Huh, first rumours of Techno-pets and now TECHNO-DRAGON!
The world will never be the same.

Ok, yes, this is insane, and no doubt errata'd/explained more clearly elsewhere, but the Trait description and the Technomancer section both say nothing about having a Magic score preventing entry. It could almost, almost make sense if they made a decision on if Resonance was/was not a breed of Magic.
But yeah, there it is. Point me to the rules banning this and put my mind at rest, so I can continue choose between a Shifter-rigger or Dronomancer build for my crazy single-drone assassin living in a bunker under the desert, with a 'body' in each major city of the world. Because if this is legal...I can take my cake, and not just simply eat it, but gnaw onwards through the bake-ways of the planet until all the cakiness in the world cowers beneath my icing-smeared grasp.

Sorry, overtired and m'thoughts are going a little crazy; that was supposed to say 'The last thing preventing total Technomancer dominance is gone.'


Runner's Companion p.88

Qualities
Shapeshifters can take every quality they qualify for except
those that grant Resonance.

EDIT: Dragon April Fools PC rules state there are no known dracoform technomancers
RC p. 76 says Drakes can't be TMs. p. 79 says Infected can't either. Nor can AIs(p.89) or Free Spirits(p.93)
It isn't strictly forbidden for critters, but the Uneducated Quality is going to make it difficult.
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Makki
post Feb 15 2011, 04:25 PM
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and for Drakes:
RC p76

Characters with any of the Infected qualities, any quality
that grants Resonance, and non-metahuman characters may not
take this quality. The Drake quality is also incompatible with the
Latent Dracomorphosis quality.
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Neraph
post Feb 15 2011, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (Makki @ Feb 15 2011, 10:25 AM) *
and for Drakes:
RC p76

Characters with any of the Infected qualities, any quality
that grants Resonance, and non-metahuman characters may not
take this quality. The Drake quality is also incompatible with the
Latent Dracomorphosis quality.

That's for drakes, not shifters.

How about:

QUOTE (SR4A, page 68, Magic)
Magic and Resonance are mutually exclusive attributes. A character that possesses a quality that grants a Magic of 1 or higher cannot have a Resonance attribute.


And:

QUOTE (SR4A, page 68, Resonance)
Resonance and Magic are mutually exclusive attributes. A character that possesses a quality that grants a Resonance of 1 or higher cannot have a Magic attribute.
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Fortinbras
post Feb 15 2011, 04:41 PM
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We not only had to kill this thought, but salt the earth so nothing would grow again.
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killfr3nzy
post Feb 15 2011, 04:53 PM
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Oh thank god. I'm already wondering if Technomacer brain-hacking is really that far off, considering the potential of unlimited-service Resonancex2 Sprites.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 15 2011, 04:57 PM
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I think the rules support a view that these are incompatible backward and forward through time, even: if you ever had a Magic rating, you can never have Resonance, and vice versa.
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Fortinbras
post Feb 15 2011, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (killfr3nzy @ Feb 15 2011, 12:53 PM) *
Oh thank god. I'm already wondering if Technomacer brain-hacking is really that far off, considering the potential of unlimited-service Resonancex2 Sprites.

There already is brain hacking. It's called Manipulation spells.
And who is this GM giving you unlimited service sprites? We need to go have a talk outside.
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Draco18s
post Feb 15 2011, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (killfr3nzy @ Feb 15 2011, 11:53 AM) *
Oh thank god. I'm already wondering if Technomacer brain-hacking is really that far off, considering the potential of unlimited-service Resonancex2 Sprites.


Brain-hacking ruins ShadowRun.

Simply because "hacking that guy's cyber" turns from the "worst idea to do in combat ever" into "the best idea to do in combat ever." Because you can hack anyone, regardless of cyber, including the mage, and turn them into a meat puppet. Without the requisite "stirrup" hardware. And you can make the mage cast spells.
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Stahlseele
post Feb 15 2011, 07:32 PM
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Does Brain-Hacking mean an AI can possess Magical active people?
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Draco18s
post Feb 15 2011, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 15 2011, 02:32 PM) *
Does Brain-Hacking mean an AI can possess Magical active people?


AIs can't possess people. It's not like that. You'd have to look up Frank's rules on hacking to see how far he let "brain hacking" go.
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Stahlseele
post Feb 15 2011, 08:06 PM
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Yeah, i tried that once . . i freely admit that i do not understand these rules all that much i'm afraid ^^#
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BishopMcQ
post Feb 15 2011, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 15 2011, 08:57 AM) *
I think the rules support a view that these are incompatible backward and forward through time, even: if you ever had a Magic rating, you can never have Resonance, and vice versa.


Check Running Wild, page 205.
QUOTE
Magic and Resonance
As mentioned in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition, Magic and Resonance are mutually exclusive. A critter cannot have both abilities, and the corollary ability is prohibited once a specific ability has been expressed. This means that a critter which is normally Paranormal cannot become an Emergent critter even if its Magic is reduced to 0. Likewise, an adept who burns out her magic ability cannot become a technomancer.

So if you've ever expressed on one side (such as for critters, sapient or otherwise, or metahumans), you can never express the other side.
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Mardrax
post Feb 15 2011, 10:05 PM
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Clear.

So what happens when a Technomancer gets hit with the "let me bite my lip, then spit you in the mouth and open wounds" attack some feral ghoul might unleash on him?

Another interesting possibility: what happens if you'd give a sapient critter any ammount of deltaware gene therapy while in utero, thereby preventing it from ever being born with Magic?
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Stahlseele
post Feb 15 2011, 10:08 PM
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First case he loses his technomantic abilities.
second case, it's still born.
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Udoshi
post Feb 15 2011, 10:57 PM
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Its worth noting that these rules CAN be used to make techno-critters, just by a very roundabout, loopholey method.

Remember the pixie-tm threads?

Burnout a your magic, THEN emerge.

And yes, its quite silly.
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Stahlseele
post Feb 15 2011, 11:04 PM
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And you lose the best things about a pixie.
free flight and concealment.
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Draco18s
post Feb 15 2011, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 15 2011, 05:57 PM) *
Its worth noting that these rules CAN be used to make techno-critters, just by a very roundabout, loopholey method.

Remember the pixie-tm threads?

Burnout a your magic, THEN emerge.

And yes, its quite silly.


QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Feb 15 2011, 03:57 PM) *
Check Running Wild, page 205.
QUOTE
Magic and Resonance
As mentioned in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition, Magic and Resonance are mutually exclusive. A critter cannot have both abilities, and the corollary ability is prohibited once a specific ability has been expressed. This means that a critter which is normally Paranormal cannot become an Emergent critter even if its Magic is reduced to 0. Likewise, an adept who burns out her magic ability cannot become a technomancer.

So if you've ever expressed on one side (such as for critters, sapient or otherwise, or metahumans), you can never express the other side.

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BishopMcQ
post Feb 15 2011, 11:16 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 15 2011, 02:57 PM) *
Its worth noting that these rules CAN be used to make techno-critters, just by a very roundabout, loopholey method.

Remember the pixie-tm threads?

Burnout a your magic, THEN emerge.

And yes, its quite silly.

Udoshi--As Draco pointed out with my quote, that loophole was specifically closed in Running Wild. It would be possible to discuss with your GM having a Pixie who never was born with Magic, and instead came with Resonance. This would lose all of the Paranormal critter abilities, and possibly be substituted with Emergent powers. But then, you're playing a 12-18" tall critter who resembles a pixie in form but not function.
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Stahlseele
post Feb 15 2011, 11:19 PM
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Just WHY they felt the need to close that so called loop hole is beyond me . . it was allready impossible to combinertron magic and emergence due to needing the burnout before the emergence . .
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BishopMcQ
post Feb 15 2011, 11:23 PM
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That whole page was the end result of several discussions and unanswered questions amongst freelancers and fans. It was meant to provide clarity where the answer had been a little foggy before.
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Mardrax
post Feb 15 2011, 11:27 PM
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Indeed it was, hence my question about TMs and Ghouls.

My question about in utero (or even in vitro, for Gene Therapy) ware is aimed at the same thing as well, of course. Though more along a philosophical bent. If the fetus is not a separate living entity, it has no attributes of its own, and thus is born without Magic, if it's augmented before birth. Would this make a TM critter possible?

Also:
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 16 2011, 12:04 AM) *
And you lose the best things about a pixie.
free flight and concealment.

Is a Pixie's flight actually described as magic? It has wings. (ridiculously small as any flying humanoid's wings are bound to be) Other than that, it's a normal, independant mode of movement, with a separate Physical Active skill to use it better.
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Stahlseele
post Feb 15 2011, 11:30 PM
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It's as magical as a dragons flight.
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SpellBinder
post Feb 15 2011, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 15 2011, 09:57 AM) *
I think the rules support a view that these are incompatible backward and forward through time, even: if you ever had a Magic rating, you can never have Resonance, and vice versa.
There's two catches at least:
QUOTE (RC, page 79)
A character with any Infected quality cannot take any quality that grants Resonance (and loses them if he previously possessed them).
And to help answer Mardrax's question:
QUOTE (RC, page 83)
... The character loses all Resonance and technomancer abilities and gains the Infected (Ghoul) Quality and a Magic attribute of 1 (or retains his own Magic attribute, if higher). ...
There are similar lines for HMHVV I and HMHVV II about Resonance and Magic as well (essentially all the same). So it is possible to Emerge as a TM at the start of your life, and then flip around to becoming a magician, but you become a bane to society in general as a side effect.
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Udoshi
post Feb 15 2011, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Feb 15 2011, 04:16 PM) *
Udoshi--As Draco pointed out with my quote, that loophole was specifically closed in Running Wild. It would be possible to discuss with your GM having a Pixie who never was born with Magic, and instead came with Resonance. This would lose all of the Paranormal critter abilities, and possibly be substituted with Emergent powers. But then, you're playing a 12-18" tall critter who resembles a pixie in form but not function.


Ooh! Fantastic. Score two for running wild.

I like how it took that book to fix Enhanced Senses to usefulness, too.

Thanks!
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