Defense vs Astral Weenies, Suggestions? Options

[Apathy]

My group has hit on the idea of using 4+ watchers to melee more powerful spirits using the friends in melee rules. Using a decent high force spirit, it takes almost forever for them to do any damage (spirits body roll almost always negates the light damage) but with +4/-4 to the target numbers the watchers always win the melee rolls.

Does anyone have suggestions for how to counter this other than responding in kind?

[Zazen]

The larger spirit can simply ignore the watchers and do whatever it's supposed to do. Problem solved ;)

[Herald of Verjig...]

Watcherball: a very restricted target manaball.

[mfb]

if the more powerful spirit is summoned, have it used fast astral travel to go back to its summoner and let it know what's going on. the summoner will likely respond by tossing out a bunch of watchers of its own, and then calling the security desk at whatever facility he works for.

[Lilt]

Yes, the wather pack tactic can be extremely effective. Some ways to take-out watcher packs are with area effect spells, the whirling martial arts maneuver, and the confusion spirit power (which works on the astral). Another technique the larger spirit can use is to disengage every second round then charge at a point that is out of range of the other 3 watchers, taking them out 1 by 1. (This is a tactic you'll often see people use in melee-fighting computer games)

[Apathy]

I guess in some cases that would work. If the spirits were there to beat up runners, though, they would have to deal with the friends in melee rule regardless.

I understand the rationale behind friends in melee, but think that it might be too powerful. It means that 5 girl scouts (unarmed 1 from their self defense merit badge) could probably kick a melee physad's (unarmed 6) ass.

[ Spoiler ]

Physad: Body5, Strength6, Quickness6, Reaction8+2D6 (rolls 15), Unarmed 6, 6MStun

Girl Scouts: Body2, Strength2, Quickness3, Reaction 3+1D6 (rolls 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 ) Unarmed 1, 2MStun
----------------------------------------------------
Phase 15:
Evil Physad attacks GS1 -->TN8 (base 4, + 4 for enemies in melee) - Rolls 12 dice - Two successes

GS1 defends -->TN2 (base 4, - 4 for friends in melee, 2 min) - Rolls 2 dice - Two successes ---> ties go to the attacker

GS1 resists 6M with 2 body, gets no successes - now has moderate damage (+2 TN, -2 Init)
-----------------------------------------------------
Phase 7:
GS2 attacks, kicking him in the shin --> TN2 - Rolls 2 dice - Two successes

EP defends --> TN8 - Rolls 8 Dice (skill plus 2 remaining combat pool) - 1 success ---> GS scores a hit!

EP resists 2M with 5 body - 4 successes, no damage
----------------------------------------------------
Phase 6:
GS1 attacks, stomping on his foot--> TN2 - Rolls 2 dice - Two successes

EP defends --> TN8 - Rolls 6 Dice (no combat pool left) - no successes ---> GS1 scores a hit, and 2 net successes ups the damage to serious!

EP resists 2S with 5 body - 4 successes, light wound (+1TN, -1 Init)
----------------------------------------------------
Phase 6:
GS3 attacks, biting his hand--> TN2 - Rolls 2 dice - Two successes

EP defends --> TN9 - Rolls 6 Dice (no combat pool left) - no successes ---> GS3 scores a hit, and 2 net successes ups the damage to serious!

EP resists 2S with 5 body - 4 successes, light wound (second box, no additional modifiers yet)
----------------------------------------------------
Phase 5:
EP attacks, aiming another vicious kick at GS1--> TN9 - Rolls 6 dice - no successes

EP defends --> TN2(Base 4, plus 2 for Mod damage, -4 for friends) - Rolls 2 Dice -->2 net successes ups the damage to serious as GS1 sidesteps the kick and gives him a head-butt to the belly!

EP resists 2S with 5 body - 4 successes, light wound (third box, now at moderate wound +2 TN/-2Init)
----------------------------------------------------
Phase 5:
GS4 attacks, scratching at his eyes--> TN2 - Rolls 2 dice - Two successes

EP defends --> TN10 - Rolls 6 Dice (no combat pool left) - no successes ---> GS3 scores a hit, and 2 net successes ups the damage to serious!

EP resists 2S with 5 body - 4 successes, light wound (fourth box, no additional modifiers yet)
----------------------------------------------------
Phase 4:
GS5 attacks, punch to the crotch--> TN2 - Rolls 2 dice - Two successes

EP defends --> TN10 - Rolls 6 Dice (no combat pool left) - no successes ---> GS3 scores a hit, and 2 net successes ups the damage to serious!

EP resists 2S with 5 body - 4 successes, light wound (fifth box, no additional modifiers yet)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
At the end of the first 3 seconds, Evil PhysAd is one box away from a serious wound, and it looks grim for him. He decides to run away in shame and the girls throw boxes of thin mints at him.

[holychampion]

LMFAO :rotfl:
OH I soo want to kick my Adepts ass with Girlscouts!

[kevyn668]

That has to be the funniest thing I've seen around this place in the year that I've been here!! :rotfl:

[Kagetenshi]

I definitely like the idea of Watcherball, though it could be argued that you would need Slaughter Watcher.

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Apathy]

Based on this thread, my next character will have an intense phobia of Girlscouts.

[RedmondLarry]

In terms of game balance, I don't want a pack of watchers to be both super-cheap and the most awesome Astral fighting machine out there. I also don't want the Girl Scouts of UCAS to order all their scout troops in the Seattle Metroplex to swarm over the Seattle gangs once a year in an effort to clean up Seattle.

So we've added the following house rule: A defender in a melee can choose to ignore selected attackers. Such attackers don't count as Friends for any other attackers, and the defender neither counters nor uses Combat Pool against attacks from those so selected. The Defender only uses Body dice (and Karma Pool) to reduce damage.

[FlakJacket]

[Shockwave_IIc]

[Cain]

The Warcher Attack Pack tactic can be extremely effective against single spirits. The answer is, of course, to counter with your own swarm of watchers.

[Apathy]

[Panzergeist]

The way I've seen it dealt with is a simple reinterprittion of the existing rule. Friends in melee only applies for friends who have already engaged in a round of combat. So, watcher 1 attacks and gets no friends in melee, watcher 2 attacks and gets 1 friend if and only if watcher 1 survived, and so on.

[TheScamp]

That's the way I've always done it. Doesn't seem to make sense that a guy hasn't even had a chance to move yet is able interfere or help out his buddy.

[Kagetenshi]

Then they just hold their actions and attack at the same time. Problem solved, FIM bonuses galore.

~J

[TheScamp]

Possibly giving the lone person time to either get out or beat a couple of 'em down.

[Kagetenshi]

To either get out or beat one of them down.

~J

[cykotek]

As far as the "girl scouts vs adept" thing goes, you need to remember the order of engagement. I don't consider the rest of the girl scouts to be in melee unless they've had a chance to act and engage, or are being attacked as part of a "multiple targets" melee attack. If you can go fast enough to get the jump on them, you can probably disable one or two, then disengage to make another pass. With a higher initiative, you stand a better chance of disengaging for a moment, to rejoin the melee in a less disadvantageous position. And if you can't disengage, you've managed to drop one or two opponents before their friends can start making your life difficult.

[TheScamp]

[Neon Tiger]

How's about using Spiritbolt/ball to take out watchers?

Does Spiritbolt/ball affect fleshform insect spirits? I'd say yes.

[TheScamp]