The Drain Value of Magical Healing, What is it? Options

[Eratosthenes]

My apologies: I'm sure this has been asked before, but the search function on this site gives me every thread where drain, healing, or health has been mentioned.

What is the Drain Value of the Heal spell? Is it:

1) The damage the target has (-2)
2) The damage the spell heals (-2)
3) Something else entirely?

E.g.: Bob has suffered 6P damage. Susy (Magic 5) casts the Heal spell on him, at Force 4, garnering 2 hits.

Must Susy resist 4S drain, or 1S drain?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My apologies: I'm sure this has been asked before, but the search function on this site gives me every thread where drain, healing, or health has been mentioned.

What is the Drain Value of the Heal spell? Is it:

1) The damage the target has (-2)
2) The damage the spell heals (-2)
3) Something else entirely?

E.g.: Bob has suffered 6P damage. Susy (Magic 5) casts the Heal spell on him, at Force 4, garnering 2 hits.

Must Susy resist 4S drain, or 1S drain?

It is Option 1: 4s... it is total (Damage Sustained - 2)DV

[Eratosthenes]

It is Option 1: 4s... it is total (Damage Sustained - 2)DV

That is how I read it, but one of my players was arguing for the 2nd.

Thanks!

[Medicineman]

we had this discussion also very often .In Forums as well as in our Rounds.
We consider #2 as the right one.
The Drain depends upon how much the Spell heals ,not how deep the Wound is

With Mambo # 5
Medicineman

[Eratosthenes]

Huh. Well, that muddies things nicely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

We, too, play using option 2. We prefer the drain based on amount healed, not on total wound. Otherwise you could *really* hurt yourself trying to heal a gravely wounded troll when all you're trying to do is just heal them enough for them to make it to a medical facility.

[Dakka Dakka]

We, too, play using option 2. We prefer the drain based on amount healed, not on total wound. Otherwise you could *really* hurt yourself trying to heal a gravely wounded troll when all you're trying to do is just heal them enough for them to make it to a medical facility.

Don't forget to use First Aid first. Either way, after magical healing only the medicine skill and rest will help the injured.

[Summerstorm]

Well, more data is always good, yes?

I am doing the choice 1-thingie.

Why? First: It is simple, and doesn't allow for trickery-abuse (when people begin argueing about what a "Set of wounds" is, and if they could just heal low values in a chain and such.
Also it states the drain is (Damage value)-2, not (Damage healed)-2 or (Force)-2.

And for fluff: Magic tends to ALWAYS target the whole. While the effect itself CAN be about a single aspect of a target, the target is always a complete thing or person. I would allow for specific healing when you have specialized healing spells (which would be bad for bookkeeping, and overly complex). I mean for example a "Heal Bullet Wounds" or "Heal Legs" spell. They might have a even lower drain, and will only target specific wounds and woundlevels. But that is a stupid idea though. Just take your 13 drain to get your wounded troll-friend back from the DAMN DEAD and be happy about it *g*.

[CanRay]

I've ruled Version 1 for my games. Just as it's more difficult to patch up a person that has multiple or massive injuries, it's the same with dealing with trauma using magic.

[Thanee]

The Drain Value of Heal is equal to the Damage Value the target sustains (before healing) minus two (IMHO).

Bye
Thanee

[Jhaiisiin]

Well, more data is always good, yes?

I am doing the choice 1-thingie.

Why? First: It is simple, and doesn't allow for trickery-abuse (when people begin argueing about what a "Set of wounds" is, and if they could just heal low values in a chain and such.
Also it states the drain is (Damage value)-2, not (Damage healed)-2 or (Force)-2.

And for fluff: Magic tends to ALWAYS target the whole. While the effect itself CAN be about a single aspect of a target, the target is always a complete thing or person. I would allow for specific healing when you have specialized healing spells (which would be bad for bookkeeping, and overly complex). I mean for example a "Heal Bullet Wounds" or "Heal Legs" spell. They might have a even lower drain, and will only target specific wounds and woundlevels. But that is a stupid idea though. Just take your 13 drain to get your wounded troll-friend back from the DAMN DEAD and be happy about it *g*.

That is a fair view. I don't agree with it, but I understand where you're coming from.

For us, it's less about trickery. We rule "set of wounds" to be all wounds between heal spells. So Undamaged->First heal->More damage->Heal (only that new damage)->etc. Keeps us honest.

Using your idea above though, I'd max the drain out at the maximum amount of damage that the spell can hope to heal, based on force cast. After all, if your friend has 15 boxes of damage, unless you're overcasting as an initiate, you're never going to be able to heal that much damage with the spell. IMO you shouldn't risk death when your spell can't heal even a 3rd of the damage in question.

Oh, and of course First Aid first. Always do that. Just didn't see it being relevant to the discussion at hand.

[Game2BHappy]

For a long time we were using it the #2 way, but about a year ago we re-read it and realized it probably should be #1.

That being said, we are still playing it the #2 way as a style-of-play choice. A little easier healing allows for some braver PCs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That is a fair view. I don't agree with it, but I understand where you're coming from.

For us, it's less about trickery. We rule "set of wounds" to be all wounds between heal spells. So Undamaged->First heal->More damage->Heal (only that new damage)->etc. Keeps us honest.

Using your idea above though, I'd max the drain out at the maximum amount of damage that the spell can hope to heal, based on force cast. After all, if your friend has 15 boxes of damage, unless you're overcasting as an initiate, you're never going to be able to heal that much damage with the spell. IMO you shouldn't risk death when your spell can't heal even a 3rd of the damage in question.

Oh, and of course First Aid first. Always do that. Just didn't see it being relevant to the discussion at hand.

Using your own life energy to stabalize and heal someone with 15 boxes of damae is risky, and likely to cause the death of the mage trying it. Seems fair to me...

[tagz]

I play by option #2.

It just doesn't seem right to me that in every other spell the caster can control it's power level on the fly by choosing the Force. But not heal? Why is that one the only one to break from that standard mechanic, the only spell that the mage has no control whatsoever on the spell's power?

So when I look at it and can easily read it as either interpretation, I pick #2. The Force of the heal spell still matters in option #2 because it will limit the hits and therefore drain. That seems more in line with the rest of spellcasting then option #1.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I play by option #2.

It just doesn't seem right to me that in every other spell the caster can control it's power level on the fly by choosing the Force. But not heal? Why is that one the only one to break from that standard mechanic, the only spell that the mage has no control whatsoever on the spell's power?

So when I look at it and can easily read it as either interpretation, I pick #2. The Force of the heal spell still matters in option #2 because it will limit the hits and therefore drain. That seems more in line with the rest of spellcasting then option #1.

You DO control the power level, you choose the Force you cat it at. Unfortunately for the Caster, Drain is not based upon the Force of the Heal Spell, but upon how jacked up the recipient of the Spell is.

[tagz]

Which means there are only two meaningful Forces to cast it at:
Force = Magic score
Force = Magic score x 2 if you don't mind (or want to due to nearly full stun track) taking physical drain


Anyhow, I've read it over and over again and both interpretations appear equally correct to me by RAW. "Damage Value" alone doesn't specifically say whether it's damage sustained by target or damage healed by caster. I just prefer #2 since it gives the player more options and control, though neither interpretation do I really like.

[Irion]

The first seems a bit more valid but I would only count "physical" damage not stun.

But this choise influences the building of a character big time.
So I would never build a healer without the Biomed-group on 4.
Simply to have an option to heal bigger wounds without killing myself. (If you are counting Stun too, it is close to a nobrainer)

[Muspellsheimr]

I use (F÷2)+0

To avoid this eighteen valid interpretations bullshit, and to make it consistent with all other spells, I advise changing the Drain of all curative Health spells from (DV) to (F÷2), and adding +2.

[Ascalaphus]

It is kind of a funny Drain value, when you look at it that way. If you pick #1, there's no penalty for casting at huge Force except overcasting. At #2, you only "pay" for the hits you put into damage; if you get more spellcasting hits than you're comfortable with, you could invest them into speeding up the healing instead (and not take Drain for them). Both these things seem ugly.

So I'd pick #3: the Drain Value is simply Force -2. Consistent with other spells.

[Jhaiisiin]

Like a great many things in SR, it seems there are two (or more) valid interpretations. Choose what works best at each table, as always. (Like LOS capable heal spells in our game... stupid time for healing is still restrictive, but at least you don't have to physically touch the person... Yes, that's a house rule)

[Kim]

Heal is a mana spell (+0), range of touch (–2), and permanent (+0, since it restores the body to its natural state). Since it is curative, the DV is based on the damage being healed. DV:(Damage Value) – 2

Seems obvious that damage being healed is not the DV of the wound.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Heal is a mana spell (+0), range of touch (–2), and permanent (+0, since it restores the body to its natural state). Since it is curative, the DV is based on the damage being healed. DV:(Damage Value) – 2

Seems obvious that damage being healed is not the DV of the wound.

Not So Obvious, otherwise this discussion would not be taking place... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Garvel]

Anyhow, I've read it over and over again and both interpretations appear equally correct to me by RAW. "Damage Value" alone doesn't specifically say whether it's damage sustained by target or damage healed by caster. I just prefer #2 since it gives the player more options and control, though neither interpretation do I really like.

You can interpret it that way, when you look only at the "Heal" spell. But when you look at other healing spells like "Resist Pain", "Cure Disease" or "Detox" too, you will get problems with that sort of argumentation.
Resist pain doesn't heal any damage, but it has still the drain value: (Damage Value) – 4.

Streetmagic page 160:

Base Drain Value: All spells except for Curative Health
spells have a starting Drain Value of Force ÷ 2 (rounded down).
Curative Health spells have a base Drain Value equal to the value
of the damage they are healing or effect they are countering.

I thought my argumentation above was convincing for answer #1, but this seems more like answer #2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
Now I am confused. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

*Edit: But no matter what is RAW, I think that #2 would be the better Rule. Otherwise the drain would be too high for a healing spell imho.

[Jhaiisiin]

My Street Magic PDF says 162 for that quote, but yeah. It's "...damage they are healing..." A force 6 spell can't heal more than 6 boxes, so max 6 drain then? After all, you aren't trying to heal 12 boxes with your force 6 spell (not including overcasting here for this example).

[Dakka Dakka]

My Street Magic PDF says 162 for that quote, but yeah. It's "...damage they are healing..." A force 6 spell can't heal more than 6 boxes, so max 6 drain then? After all, you aren't trying to heal 12 boxes with your force 6 spell (not including overcasting here for this example).

"damage they are healing" however is not the same as damage boxes the spell succeeds to remove. The Spell is healing a patient with a certain amount of damage. So it is the value before any effect that counts.
IIRC the number of boxes that are healed are never referred to as Damage Value.