How much is a Kidney worth? Options

[spica2501]

So a character in the game I run got shot up real bad, and is going to need some money to pay for the medical bill and cyber limbs. I am planning to have the street doc that is patching him up offer to knock a few thousand off the bill in exchange for one of the player's kidneys. I was wondering, in the age of cloned organs, how much money is a second hand kidney worth?

[CanRay]

Cloned organs are expensive, as they take awhile to grow and there's a fairly high demand.

As for a used kidney, depends on how used it is. So, how many drugs is the character addicted to?

[Fatum]

Typo O replacement organ costs 6000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

So I'd say his costs around 3k. Unless he's type O, of course, then 4k.

[Ascalaphus]

Organs which aren't Type O have all sorts of rejection issues. Also, they tend to be Damaged Goods when coming from unhealthy people. Cloning Type-O isn't all that expensive.

Although Tamanous is a cute bogeyman, when you start to think about it, there really isn't a very good business case for organlegging anymore.

[Fatum]

Cloning, as per Augmentation, is still half again as expensive as chopping off someone else's part.

[Manunancy]

So I'd say his costs around 3k. Unless he's type O, of course, then 4k.

which means the donor will get at most 1k, and more likely 500 - retail won't bring in much cash, you'd better go wholesale (or more acurately whole body). Though from the donor's side it less interesting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

Depends on how grim you want to portray the thing, of course, but if an organ costs 6k to the final buyer, I'd say that it's initially sold for around 2/3 of that. Each man between makes some 10% usually.

[Ascalaphus]

The standard sale price of looted gear (for PCs) is about 30%, so that'd be 1800 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a Type O kidney. Maybe half for a non-Type O? They're less useful (not everyone can take them), and Type O is the standard, so fewer doctors are trained to use non-O.

On the one hand, it makes Tamanous implausible. On the other hand it makes organ-harvesting less lucrative for the PCs.

[Omenowl]

The standard sale price of looted gear (for PCs) is about 30%, so that'd be 1800 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a Type O kidney. Maybe half for a non-Type O? They're less useful (not everyone can take them), and Type O is the standard, so fewer doctors are trained to use non-O.

On the one hand, it makes Tamanous implausible. On the other hand it makes organ-harvesting less lucrative for the PCs.

Odds are our Tamanous does not stop with just 1 organ he probably goes for the whole body. We also are making assumptions that the cloning process does not use some basic tissue from people to make the organs. I am sure there is plenty of uses for bodies in the 2072 medical field that isn't mentioned in the ads or where people turn a blind eye.

[Method]

And let's not forget cheep cyber replacement and corner drugstore dialysis. I think a used kidney is pretty much useless by 2070 except in some very specific situations. For example: if you really want to throw your player a bone, have the street doc check his blood and discover that he has a rare minor antigen that happens to match that of a local magician or rich dude that thinks a living unrelated tx is better for his Feng Shui. That or a persnickety ghoul that just prefers the taste of that particular tissue type (a wonderful idea from a recent thread around here somewhere).

[spica2501]

And let's not forget cheep cyber replacement...

I'm not so sure cyborg organs suitable for permanent implantation exist in shadowrun. I haven't seen rules for them in any of the books.

As for the plausibility of tamanous: They steal cyberware and bioware in addition to organs. My guess is that the second hand aug' market is where they make most of their money.

Taking into account the the prices listed in the book, as well the feedback of previous posters, I'm thinking about offering him 2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and going as high as 3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) with a very good negotiation roll.

[Method]

I'm not so sure cyborg organs suitable for permanent implantation exist in shadowrun. I haven't seen rules for them in any of the books.

My thinking is that they probably don't dwell on them in the books because in the grand scheme of SR cyber/biotechnology replacing your run-of-the-mill kidney is pretty mundane. They also don't mention livers or pancreas or retinas or any of the things we routinely transplant nowadays. Although for retina's there is an obvious cyber replacement, which argues for the case that the development of most non-restricted cyber was driven by the need for replacement parts. Also, (if we really want to speculate) with SR level tech you wouldnt even need kidneys- an injection of some specialized dialysis nanites would do just as well.

If you think it makes a good story or fit with the feel of your game, by all means pay the dude for his kidney, but I'm of the opinion that mundane organs aren't worth much in 207x.

[Mardrax]

If more people knew about the general success rate of having a randomly selected organ work in a randomly selected person (next to nothing), the horrendous ammount of time and difficulty it takes to know all the required data about both receiver and donater to improve those odds (hours, days, in a medical facility), the chance to find an actual match in those sets of data (pretty damned small), the odds od the operation having a succesful aftermath given that match (still a far cry from 100%), and the logistics involved in getting that organ to its intended recipient in time for chances of success to not degrade fast, organlegging wouldn't be a profitable trade even today. Let alone with availability of cloned type O organs.

Even in the ideal situation of well matched recipients, being operated on in neighbouring operating theaters, and not having more than a minute or so between removal and insertion of the organ, chances of success aren't 100%.

[CanRay]

It's probably being kept up as an "Industry" due to the fact that cheap cloned replacements are just now coming on the market as affordable for the properly equipped hospital. While Shadow Clinics are just now getting earlier generation cloning equipment and such, and some Type O materials to clone from, which would take longer and have a larger failure rate than at the proper clinics.

It's something only the higher-end of the SINless can afford. While "Recycled" parts are still cheap and plentiful. And Shadowrun Medicine has dealt with the issues of rejection for the most part as long as the blood-type matches and medication is taken on time. At least, that's how I read how things are from Butch's statements about the issue when she talks about harvesting people that die on her table like it was just another day, and KANE is upset about it. (IIRC, that is.).

Think about the rejection rate for what cybernetics would be, and you'd also be aghast.

[spica2501]

My thinking is that they probably don't dwell on them in the books because in the grand scheme of SR cyber/biotechnology replacing your run-of-the-mill kidney is pretty mundane. They also don't mention livers or pancreas or retinas or any of the things we routinely transplant nowadays.

What about the Advanced Medtech chapter in Augmentation? There are prices there for Type O and cloned organs, eyes and limbs.

[Method]

Yeah Mardrax isn't totally off base but the picture be paints is a little more grim than reality. Living unrelated transplants between mismatched donors are increasingly common with modern immunosuppressive drugs. They aren't ideal obviously, but the kidney's 5 year survival is comparable to a living related kidney and better than a cadaveric kidney. There is a higher rate of acute rejection (as you might imagine) but that is treatable.

But meh. The SOTA curve Canray describes is totally feasible. Like I said if it fits the game world you are trying to create, then organ legging is a great plot device.

[Sengir]

Cloning, as per Augmentation, is still half again as expensive as chopping off someone else's part.

Actually, according to Augmentation cloning makes you money...

A full whimp costs 25k, arms/legs cost 21k each and organs 6k. So if you need a kidney, borrow 25,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) at 12% interest to buy a full body. Then sell the limps for 28k to pay back the money, grab the required kidney, and sell all other organs for 2k profit each.

In other words, take the costs in Augmentation with a grain of salt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Method]

What about the Advanced Medtech chapter in Augmentation? There are prices there for Type O and cloned organs, eyes and limbs.

. Sure, but my point is that they probably developed less sophisticated cyber replacements first that are now obsolete and thus cheeper (i.e.- more accessible to the SINless). Again, just because they don't mention them doesn't mean they don't exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Manunancy]

One point to consider about selling some poor schmuck a 'borrowed' kidney : each customer may very become a forever (or at least for life) customer for your immunospressors. Sort of like selling a razor or an inkjet printer today : the real money is in the consumables that go along with the item...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

which means the donor will get at most 1k, and more likely 500 - retail won't bring in much cash, you'd better go wholesale (or more acurately whole body). Though from the donor's side it less interesting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Had a ganger who used to get 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per Body... made a decent living at it as a second line of work to augment his normal income.

[Method]

One point to consider about selling some poor schmuck a 'borrowed' kidney...

Also important to consider before selling your own: permanent astral link. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Fatum]

After being implanted? I'd say it'd stop being a link to you and start being a link to the guy who had it implanted after a while.

[Mardrax]

Yeah Mardrax isn't totally off base but the picture be paints is a little more grim than reality. Living unrelated transplants between mismatched donors are increasingly common with modern immunosuppressive drugs.

This is true, of course. It could be a poor man's option. Put less money in than for a vat-grown organ plus operation, pay out the nose for immunodepressants, have a wrecked immune system for the foreseeable future, and hope you don't have to shell out the "initial fee" again in a few years.

For anyone with an actual SIN though, let alone a DocWagon or similar contract, I don't see it ever being elected over vatjobs. Chance of being more expensive in the long run is just too high, while all corps think of is long-term bottom lines.

On that same note, how much net-profit can an organisation like Tamanous make selling and distributing "donor" organs? That's what should dictate a price.
How many doctors who cater to the SINless will choose to get more thoroughly acquainted with these organisations? How much money to they have to shell out for them? How about their clients? How justified is their hope of their situation improving when they get implanted an organ that's been not only dead for who knows how long, but also most likely not immediately removed from the body post-mortem and given optimal care?
How does that weigh up to the costs of treatment for whatever they're suffering? Are they even able to afford those for longer than a few weeks? How about a cyber-alternative?

"Whatever the market will bear" is always the key answer, along with "what does the GM think about giving you more money?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CanRay]

Again, Type-O Vat-grown organs at a cheap rate is still a fairly new thing in Shadowrun. They used to be quite expensive to make, and second-hand organs were much more profitable.

We're seeing the end of the market right now, just like bootleg hooch can still get you some cash, but not as much as it did during Prohibition.

[Whipstitch]

Eh, like Ascalphus said, I think the overriding reason for organlegging still being around is that some devs and GMs like the squick factor of having factions that are willing to geek the odd squatter in order to score spare parts and ghoul chow. Personally, I would probably just operate by the KISS principle and skip such numbers oriented questions and instead stick a player with the Buggy 'Ware or High Maintenance Implant quality due to having some corners cut in the implantation/repair process. Those flaws tend to be pretty manageable, as far as flaws go, and the latter has some great flavor to it if the player really embraces it. More than anything, keeping numbers fuzzy helps keep Tamanous plausible (because the profit isn't suspiciously low) without also providing incentive to the players to get into the biz themselves due to the profit being high.