Hardliner Gloves, Hardliner Gloves question Options

[Makki]

I don't like Hardliner Gloves, because they restrict me to boxing. But ellbowing, kicking and headbutting are so much more fun...bonelaced skull anybody?

[Medicineman]

I'm dancing here with Machiavelli and all other "pro synergy effect" Poster
For me a Hardliner Glove is (just) a situational Modifier to unarmed Combat itself(you wear them ,you get a bonus, you got sth else with a bigger Bonus,bad Luck)
So it stacks with the Ki/Adept Powers just like Bone density 'ware

with a Synergy Dance
Medicineman

[Medicineman]

I don't like Hardliner Gloves, because they restrict me to boxing. But ellbowing, kicking and headbutting are so much more fun...bonelaced skull anybody?

Why do they restrict you ?
you just don't get the +1 Bonus if you "Knee sbdy in the Groin" thats all


with a Dance from the Hip
Medicineman

[Mäx]

Shock gloves are unarmed as well, if you allow critical strike to add to hardliner gloves because it uses the unarmed combat skill then you must allow it to be used with shock gloves as well.

If you use the Shock gloves to hit some one, then you should get the bonus from critical strike, but you wont get to use the electrical damage code then.

[Garvel]

for an extra one, do you realize how broken allowing critical strike to stack with a weapon focus would be

It wouldn't be too broken. It would be broken if you fought in a Bud Spencer and Terence Hill film. But in shadowrun your opponents will have guns. Anything that has to do with meele is relative harmless for powergaming purpose in SR. Its easy for the GM to find a challenge for you. Random dude with a gun.

Shock gloves are unarmed as well, if you allow critical strike to add to hardliner gloves because it uses the unarmed combat skill then you must allow it to be used with shock gloves as well.

The thing with the shock gloves is easy to answer. You have to choose between shock damage and punching damage anyway. You can't have both.
FAQ:

If you punch someone with shock gloves, do you inflict standard punching damage (STR/2) in addition to the glove’s 6S DV? If you have gloves on both hands, can you attack with both and do 12S DV?

You can choose to punch/kick/whatever and do regular unarmed damage, or you can choose to touch and zap with the shock gloves, doing only the shock glove damage (not the unarmed damage too). Even with two gloves, the damage is still just 6S DV per glove, but each counts as a separate attack (Two Weapon Melee Combat, p.163, Arsenal).

Nitpicking is definitely not included in the thoughts of our Dev´s, so nitpicking is always wrong.

I love that quote. I wish people would consider it more. The devs had to write "unarmed attacks", because otherwise it would stack with katanas and knifes and stuff. But you are definitely overinterpreting it. RAI is more important than Nitpicking RAW.
"No, Bob, you can't shoot with that crossbow. NO ONE can shoot with a crossbow, EVER!"

On the other hand, maybe it's something diffirent: maybe it channels destructive mana into whatever you're touching. Personally, I prefer that view. It also makes it less of a shoe-in to stack it with everything;

What you are talking about is more Killing Hands than Critical Strike. Note that Critical Strike alone doesn't ignore immunity to normal weapons. I surely would, if it would "channel destructive mana into whatever you're touching".

perhaps you can't channel the mana through an in-between object, like the gloves. You first blow would disintegrate the gloves.

Its the normal case for shadowrunners to wear (normal) gloves to not leave fingerprints. If Critical strike was incompatible with any kind of gloves that would be surely mentioned in the description, because that would be f***ing important.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It depends on what you think Critical Strike does. Is it a kind of Strength additive? Then it makes sense to stack it.

On the other hand, maybe it's something diffirent: maybe it channels destructive mana into whatever you're touching. Personally, I prefer that view. It also makes it less of a shoe-in to stack it with everything; perhaps you can't channel the mana through an in-between object, like the gloves. You first blow would disintegrate the gloves.

Using that logic, though, would indicate shredded armor and clothing and no effect on the actual target. If Gloves interfere, so should armor and clothing. Bad Logic...

[Fatum]

This thread is everything wrong with dumpshock.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This thread is everything wrong with dumpshock.

Especially since it crops up repeatedly... But no worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[stu_pie]

Yeh i know this question (or ones like it) get brought up ALOT, but wanted to see if people had reached any sort of rule. Reason it came up in our group was my adept got his hands on a fairly large sum of cash (well large for our group) but having most of the basics gear, it was a question of what can i get to help boast him in combat Weapon Foci see ov choice, but with unarmed combat skill the HLG seemed only way to achieve this. Thanks for your inputs, looks like we are no closer to an answer other then "house rule".

[Machiavelli]

Damn, i want some dev´s and a final statement. So if this topic will ever come up again (probably next week...^^) i can point at the answer and say "Sh**t the f**k up and use the search-function before you quote".....i always wanted to say that. ^^

[Saint Sithney]

This thread is everything wrong with dumpshock.

Aww, come on.
We haven't even pointed out that the FAQ isn't rules and that asking the Devs is worthless because who understand the system have all gone.

[Machiavelli]

Right, we could also start discussing if direct combat spells are broken, or even better, if magic at all is broken...THAT would be the worst....i love it.^^

[Fatum]

You haven't mentioned Hitler yet, too.
However, both of those are bound to happen, and by the state of things, pretty soon.

[Makki]

You haven't mentioned Hitler yet, too.
However, both of those are bound to happen, and by the state of things, pretty soon.

just happend

[Fauxknight]

The thing with the shock gloves is easy to answer. You have to choose between shock damage and punching damage anyway. You can't have both.

Shock gloves have listed weapon damage and hardliner gloves have listed damage.

Shock gloves use unarmed combat and hardliner gloves use unarmed combat.

Shock gloves can deal thier listed damage instead of unarmed damage and hardliner gloves can deal thier listed weapon damage instead of unarmed damage.

The only difference between the two items is that one has fixed base damage instead of str based damage, just like a stun baton vs mace, they use the same skill, but one is fixed and one is str based. The only argument to be able to use critical strike with hardliner gloves is based purely on the fact that they use the unarmed combat skill. Basically the argument says your unarmed damage becomes str/2+1 if you choose to use your hardliner gloves, well guess what, with shock gloves you can choose to have your unarmed damage deal 5S(e) if you choose to strike with the shock gloves. In this respect shock gloves are 100% identical to hardliner gloves. If you allow critical strike with hardliner gloves you allow it with shock gloves.

I'm still of the opinion that they are both weapons inelligable for critical strike, but I also understand that they must strictly fall into one category or the other, only cheese monkies get to stack the bonus dice from weapon foci with the bonus damage from critical strike. In other words allwoing them to stack pretty much invalidates every other form of melee combat available to adepts and mystic adepts. By reasoning that other forms of combat should not be invalidated, you can not allow them to stack.

[Yerameyahu]

The worst part is that the people who say that Hardliners are *not* weapons for the purpose of Critical Strike/etc. are the same people who'll claim they *are* weapons for the purposes of mods, Two-Weapon Defense, Parrying…

[Makki]

The worst part is that the people who say that Hardliners are *not* weapons for the purpose of Critical Strike/etc. are the same people who'll claim they *are* weapons for the purposes of mods, Two-Weapon Defense, Parrying…

and making them weapon foci

[Ascalaphus]

If it's not a weapon for "unarmed" purposes, how can it be a weapon focus?

If adepts can stack all these things, is there any way non-Adepts can keep up?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The worst part is that the people who say that Hardliners are *not* weapons for the purpose of Critical Strike/etc. are the same people who'll claim they *are* weapons for the purposes of mods, Two-Weapon Defense, Parrying…

Yeah, they can only be one or the other.
We classify them as weapons at our table, since they are indeed a weapon (If some one does not think so, wear a pair and beat someone within an inch of their life, and see how the cops classify the assault). So, no Critical Strike/Penetrating Strike applicability. But then, they ARE useable as Weapon Foci, and for two weapon defense, etc.

[Faraday]

If it's not a weapon for "unarmed" purposes, how can it be a weapon focus?

If adepts can stack all these things, is there any way non-Adepts can keep up?

Of course they can. They buy a gun.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If it's not a weapon for "unarmed" purposes, how can it be a weapon focus?

If adepts can stack all these things, is there any way non-Adepts can keep up?

It is a Balance thing. If it counts for Both, then you have an unbalanced classification. A Non-Weapon Weapon Focus to use your question. Hardliners are EIITHER a Weapon or they are Not, they cannot be both.

Bone Lacing goes a long way to balancing the field with Adepts. After all, Adepts are often loathe to reduce their magic rating through augmentation. For those that wish to remain pure, well, They suffer the drawbacks of not having Augmentation to support them. For those who do not mind a bit of Essence loss, then Augmentation, along with Adept abilities, creates an unparalleled combatant, who has the best of both worlds. But even Still, it is just Melee Combat, which is often subpar compared to Ranged Combat.

No, in the second case, there is aboslutely no way a non-adept can maintain the pace.

[Slide7X]

So the argument is HLG are weapons, therefor if you use them its not an unarmed attack?

Does that mean then that, in SR, if I'm watch an Boxing match it's not a contest of unarmed combat but a weapon duel?

The intent should be interpreted from the Skill used in making the attack.

HLG use the Unarmed Skill, therefor an unamred attack.
Knives use the Blades Skills, therefor not an unarmed attack.

The nitpicking is pointless.

The damage bonus from HLG is situational anyway.
Did you hit him with your fist, bonus.
Did you do anything else (knee, kick, throw, jump on, elbow, bite, headbutt, trip, push, etc.), no bonus.

Never though of HLG as a weapon focus, but yes why couldn't you.
You could enchant a brick and call it a weapon focus.
The name weapon focus doesn't mean the object to be enchanted must be a "weapon" only that it will be used as one.

[Ol' Scratch]

I find some of the comments rather amusing myself. I feel bad for all these adept martial artists in some of these games who have to deal with all of their clothes spontaneously exploding off their bodies as they fight (since Unarmed Attack deals with your whole body, not just your fists; thus kneeing someone causes your pants to rip to shreds, kicking someone in the face causes your boots to explode, and throwing someone with your whole body leads to a naked adept shivering in the cold). Or even worse, the ones who are essentially arguing that you have to be naked to do any damage at all. I mean, if one pair of gloves doesn't work, why should any others?

[Garvel]

That would be a great new topic title:

"Are hardliner gloves weapons, are direct combat spells too strong, are summoned spirits too broken and what has Hitler to do with all that?"

Finally room for some good disscusion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Don't forget that the gloves will have possession spirits in them with element auras.

I don't understand your point, Scratch. Are you saying that doesn't (or shouldn't) happen?