Compatability, Previous editions Options

[saint jude]

Hi there to the everyone on dumpshock, my query is which editions of Shadowrun are compatible from a rules POV? I understand that 4th edition are incompatible with 3rd edition, but was Third edition compatible with Second and First. Sorry if this is a bit of a daft question but I've only got into Shadowrun in it's latest incarnation and I'm keen on running campaigns set in previous era's of Shadowrun. Any personal thoughts and feelings on previous editions would be welcome also.


P.S. anyone know where I can get hold of Shadowrun books in the UK, trying amazon and ebay, but retailers would be welcome.

[Ol' Scratch]

Second and Third Editions are the most compatible of the four, but it really depends on what subset of rules you're talking about. Fourth Edition's rules for the Matrix and wireless technology doesn't work with any of the previous editions, for instance, but the Magic system isn't too far off flavor wise (with the notable exception of a lack of a difference between elementals and spirits).

But, really, all your group needs to do is agree to overlook the differences and throw a new time stamp down. There's nothing wrong with using Fourth Edition's rules and sensibilities in the 2060s or even the 2050s. If it's really a problem, just assume it's an alternate timeline/world that had a slight boost in technology over the standard setting. It doesn't make any sense to go and collect the myriad books from older editions just for that. Doubly so since it'll really confuse the bejesus out of you courtesy of how alien the rules in Fourth Edition are compared to previous editions.

[Fauxknight]

1st to 2nd to 3rd were all pretty close, each jump only changing a few aspects of the game. 1 and 2 were particularly close, some of the 1st edition sourcebooks were reprinted with just the weapon damage codes changed. 3rd changed a few more rules around, but most of its material was still compatible with 1 and 2. 4th was rewritten from the ground up, so nearly every aspect of the game is slightly different.

[Ol' Scratch]

I have to disagree about First and Second. There were some pretty major changes, the most notable one that I recall being with decking (particularly decking naked). In fact, Third was and is often criticized for being a cut-and-paste job of Second for the most part. There's countless examples where this is the case. But First is certainly closer to the other two editions than Fourth is. I really wouldn't even call Fourth an edition in the series; it's all but a completely different setting as well as ruleset. There's almost no way to explain away some of the gross changes that occurred even outside the Matrix stuff. Lots of random technologies just disappeared completely, magical traditions are wholly alien, the effectiveness of various weapons (most notably shotguns and automatic weapons) flipped upside down, and so on and so forth.

[Fauxknight]

In fact, Third was and is often criticized for being a cut-and-paste job of Second for the most part.

2 and 3 looked the same, close enough that if you knew the rules for 2 you thought you knew the rules for 3. The problem was there were countless minor tweaks where somethig worked completely different in 3rd. I know my group was constantly finding new rules and saying "Wait, thats different now?".

Still the base functionality for 1, 2, and 3 were all the same, your numbers and mechanics for attributes, skills, and TNs did not change much. 3 I think was the overall most complete system in the handling of all mechanics, but it started to get a little overly complicated in some areas (vehicle mod rules-Rigger 3).

[saint jude]

Cheers for the help clearing that up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , does anyone know where I might download or buy a hard copy of the adventures and plot based books from previous editions? Not for the mechanics, but just for background and adventure lines?

[Naysayer]

Catalyst offers some more or less sloppily OCR'd .pdfs of most of the older books on their Battleshop and on DriveThru.

[darthmord]

SR1 & SR2 were fairly close for the most part. The major change I remember is that Variable Staging went away and was replaced with Fixed Staging.

Ex: One firearm might have 4L3 damage while another had 14D6. To reduce the damage code by one step (From D -> S -> M -> L -> None), you had to beat the power of the attack (the first number) by the staging (2nd number) of times. Thus to resist the 4L3 damage, you had to get a 4 or higher 3 times.

Conversely, you had to score the 1st number or higher on the attack test the same number of times as the staging to raise the damage code.

Under SR2, they went with a fixed 2 successes = Damage code step.

Incidentally, getting smacked with an assault cannon for 14D6 or 14D **really** sucked regardless of the edition.

IMO SR2 was the best edition overall because they streamlined the game from SR1 and clarified a LOT of things. 3rd seemed like changes were being made for the sake of change.

[nezumi]

A lot of the SR3 changes were more like errata for SR2. Removing grounding, reworking initiative and so on. If you stepped in the middle of a game, you couldn't tell SR3 from SR2 without looking at the cyberware on the character sheets (since available equipment is one of the things that changed the most).

Reading through SR1, the changes are definitely non-trivial. Staging is indeed the biggest one. SR1 had a lot of other weird or clumsy mechanics. SR2 fixed a LOT of stuff there. Between that and the art and background in the books, that's why SR2 is oftentimes accepted as the 'best' edition.

Most of the missions you can get on the cheap from ebay. That's really the only place you'll find the majority of them, but they're usually around $1-5 a pop, so it's not a bad deal. You can look around for recommendations on the best missions. Anything related to Bugs gets high marks (and I think they're selling the pdf for that?) but there are a number of other one-shots which were real gems.

[Sengir]

Semi-related question, is there some rule-of-thumb guide how to convert old numbers into new ones? For characters there is a conversion guide, but I'm looking for example to adapt some old TN modifiers as dice pool mods.

[Ol' Scratch]

I believe the same conversion charts covered that as best they could, but it's been a very long time since I've looked at them. Even if not, it shouldn't be very hard to eyeball the numbers if you just compare charts.

[Sengir]

Problem is, I have no idea what an average DP or standard TN in 3rd was like, so it's hard to eyeball the numbers stochastically (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

Ah, I thought you were asking something different then, sorry. And no, I don't think such a chart really exists, especially since those values changed a bit between all four editions.

[saint jude]

Cheers guys for your help, any one suggest any good places to start from the old line of shadowrun? Adventures etc? Are all of the old product range available on DriveThru/BattleShop?

[nezumi]

Semi-related question, is there some rule-of-thumb guide how to convert old numbers into new ones? For characters there is a conversion guide, but I'm looking for example to adapt some old TN modifiers as dice pool mods.

From SR1 -> SR2 - Not that I'm aware of. The weapons can be replaced with SR2 equivalents (which is time consuming). The pools all need to be recalculated. A lot of the loot from missions was out of whack too, which might be worth altering. Most of it you'll just have to eyeball. You know this task should be about this difficult, so the TN should be X and move on.

SR2 -> SR3 - There are lists of changes somewhere. Just alter things as you come to them (so replace 'turn to goo' with maybe acid spray or something). The mechanical changes are pretty minor. Pay-outs sometimes are wonky (since it assumed characters would be putting down more for crack and whores, which doesn't pan out for most SR3 players). In my experience, the big change is in setting. The SR2 adventures seem grittier and more colorful. There's no replacement for that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

SR3 -> SR4 - CGL released a crude character conversion guide with the first book. You could use that, but it'll suck. Nothing else is going to really change over nicely, and it will require you learn SR3 rules well enough that you'll be able to wing it anyway, so why bother with a guide? Really, the quickest fix is to get a few base NPC templates, one for each of the basic roles. Then dress them up to fit the character represented and stick it in. Gear you'll have to replace item by item, so you'll want to get familiar with the SR3 equipment guides. Pay scales are all out of whack. It's really going to be a mess.

[MJBurrage]

Like any simple answer, their will be notable exceptions, but IIRC a rating of 4 in SR4 is intended to be equivalent to a rating of 6 in SR1-3.

Modifiers generally have the same magnitude but are applied differently. In SR4 they add/subtract dice rolled, rather than lower/raise target numbers. Example: smartlink lowers TN by 2 in SR1-3, but adds 2 dice in SR4.

The above works OK for me when running SR1-3 adventures for SR4 characters.

[Sengir]

Like any simple answer, their will be notable exceptions, but IIRC a rating of 4 in SR4 is intended to be equivalent to a rating of 6 in SR1-3.

Modifiers generally have the same magnitude but are applied differently. In SR4 they add/subtract dice rolled, rather than lower/raise target numbers. Example: smartlink lowers TN by 2 in SR1-3, but adds 2 dice in SR4.

Yes, I already noticed that...but just from the gut feeling, are those modifers more/less relevant in SR4, or about the same?

[Whipstitch]

I'd say less relevant, overall, although I'm certain people will easily be able to find specific examples where that is not the case. Lowering the TN one or two digits can be a much bigger deal than adding a couple more dice.