Shadow's Dawn: Diving into the past- recruitment, Recruiting reserves Options

[Sephiroth]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you don't mind us looking at your sheet then? (I try to avoid that normally out of respect, and also because it can be fun learning these things IC instead.)

The first thing I noticed is that your concept seems to feel more like a Mystic Adept rather than a Magician, if not a flat-out Adept. Have you considered toying around with those instead? I mean, most of your spells seem focused on bolstering your body or mind, and you're clearly concentrating on being a melee bad ass. I know for a fact that Seth is open to new ideas and reinterpretations of existing rules to make them fit your concept better, so maybe you can ask him about changing a few adept powers around. For instance, making Elemental Strike so that it works with Improved Blades so that you can give your spear that mystical vibe, and/or tapping into previous editions and allowing Elemental Strike to work with Distance Strike so that you can use it to attack people at range, too. This would then let you focus on honing your physical side, trim down your skills, and otherwise give you a bit more focus as well as a unique feel that makes you stand out amongst the other immortals.

Heck, there used to be an adept power created by one of the original designers of the game (who's name slips my mind right now) that gave adepts access to a spell. If you could find that on the Internet and try to convert it to 4th Edition's rules, that'd be another way you can do the above while retaining some of the concepts you have in mind, such as casting illusions and whatnot.

This is all based on the first impression I got strictly from the rules you posted. I haven't read over your concept and don't know what your history is like, so maybe a Magician makes a lot more sense. If so, here's a few other things I noticed and suggest looking into a bit more critically:

Quickening. The two spells you're using it with can be just as functional inside a Sustaining Focus, and going that route actually makes you a little more versatile as those foci (which are limited to spell categories rather than specific spells) can be used for other things if you need to. This is especially true with the Health one, as you have a number of sustainable spells in that category. On a related not, I'm unsure of the shorthand you're using with your current foci. Do you have two, with one being a Force 3 Weapon/Force 5 Sustaining stacked one, and the other being a Force 8 Weapon Focus? Or are they one in the same? I'm assuming its just one, but if you have two like that you may wanna rethink it. Also, how do you go about transporting a scythe like that? I imagine we're still going to have to worry about security checkpoints and the like, at the very least in the Sixth World era. Just something to consider.

You do have a few Active Skills that seem weird. For example, why is Cybertechnology so high? You don't seem to have any abilities or skills to compliment it. And why are so many of your magical skills so low? But I guess that's more a consequence of 4th Edition's Attribute dice = Skill dice mechanics. Still seems odd to me for a dedicated magician.

Other than that, I don't know. Your numbers don't seem to be in excess of 450 to me, but I'm pretty terrible with math. Your Attributes and Active Skills only come to 337 Build Points, meaning you have a hefty 113 left to blow (which even with your spell list leaves you with a good 400,000+ nuyen). Coupled with all the freebies, including wealth and contact points... well I dunno. Seems off somehow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have considered the Mystic Adept route, but I think a magician using spells to cover his physical bases is more thematically appropriate for my character concept and I believe that it is possible to make it work within the extra power level which we have been given.

With the Quickening thing, I want to quicken those two spells specifically 1) because speed and mobility is a major part of my character's modus operandi, and a force 9 Levitate can't be sustained inside a force 5 sustaining focus (also it's quite a bit better than a mere force 5 levitate), and 2) My amount of sustaining foci is limited, even if I try to get another one or two. It looks like I'm going with the Path of the Wheel tradition, which does not have spirits of man, so I'd like to keep my sustaining foci available for things like Increase Body/Reflexes/Reaction.

Cybertechnology I made that high so that I could get rating 4 muscle toner and still be able to use my Restricted Gear qualities elsewhere, like the foci. And it is one stacked Force 8 focus, by the way. Sorry for the lack of clarity. The low magical skills have been victims of my trying to keep the BP balance in check thus far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[pbangarth]

My stats are out there for everyone to see. Please, feel free to pick things apart. God knows what I've done wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

[pbangarth]

I'm not explaining myself well, sorry. Sephiroth, the thing I am getting at is that the Increase [Attribute] spells will disappear the moment you project astrally, because they are Physical spells, and only Mana spells will work on the astral. Quickening them is expensive and will also disappear with the spells the fist time you project.

[Sephiroth]

My stats are out there for everyone to see. Please, feel free to pick things apart. God knows what I've done wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

Ol' Scratch's question gave me another related nifty idea that would need clarification from Seth and you all.

You are a free spirit, and by the rules of spirits (putting aside for the moment that FSPC's do not completely follow the NPC Spirit rules), they get all their skills equal to their Force. Now, I am not espousing that this apply to your active skills or anything like that, but it has gotten me thinking: You can raise your Logic all the way up to your Force of 9, and your General History knowledge skill is also equal to your Logic according to Seth. So, if you could permissibly raise your Logic above the 6 or 7 cap typical of skills, and still have it apply to your General History, I feel like that would be a very important advantage to have in a game with as much emphasis on history as this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Thoughts?

[Sephiroth]

I'm not explaining myself well, sorry. Sephiroth, the thing I am getting at is that the Increase [Attribute] spells will disappear the moment you project astrally, because they are Physical spells, and only Mana spells will work on the astral. Quickening them is expensive and will also disappear with the spells the fist time you project.

Why would the spells permanently disappear the moment I astrally project? Their not functioning on the astral, I can handle, but why would the spells not 'stay' with my PC's body, so to speak, or act like implants for a drake and just fail to be present as long as I'm in the astral, but return back in the meat world?

[Ol' Scratch]

I imagine General History is being treated with its own special rules. I dunno though.

Also, Seph, any spirit can sustain a spell for you up to its Force. The spell just has to be from the same category that the spirit is linked to (which is why they're listed that way in each tradition's description). Spirits of Man are used for casting spells and, for some reason, only spells you already know. So it doesn't really matter in that regard.

[Ol' Scratch]

Cybertechnology I made that high so that I could get rating 4 muscle toner and still be able to use my Restricted Gear qualities elsewhere, like the foci. And it is one stacked Force 8 focus, by the way. Sorry for the lack of clarity. The low magical skills have been victims of my trying to keep the BP balance in check thus far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I dunno, man. 24 Build Points just for that is not only a massive waste (I'd rather just have lower Toner and upgrade later in the game -- there is a medical professional in the group you know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), but kinda cheesy to boot. I mean, is there an actual reason that he's nearly a world-level expert on the subject?

[pbangarth]

Ol' Scratch's question gave me another related nifty idea that would need clarification from Seth and you all.

You are a free spirit, and by the rules of spirits (putting aside for the moment that FSPC's do not completely follow the NPC Spirit rules), they get all their skills equal to their Force. Now, I am not espousing that this apply to your active skills or anything like that, but it has gotten me thinking: You can raise your Logic all the way up to your Force of 9, and your General History knowledge skill is also equal to your Logic according to Seth. So, if you could permissibly raise your Logic above the 6 or 7 cap typical of skills, and still have it apply to your General History, I feel like that would be a very important advantage to have in a game with as much emphasis on history as this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Thoughts?

Yes, I considered that, and thought it would be kind of cool to have all the mental stats high, but I just didn't have the BP. I have INT high because of his artistic bent, the knowledge points, the number of skills he has that link to it, Initiative, and Drain. That last may be less important now, once I figure out Seth's magic damage idea. WIL is high for resistance, money, and Drain (again less important now). CHA is high for the Relationships, Contacts and general faciness. That left LOG out in the cold. Mandala seems to me to be much more an intuition than logic kind of guy.

But nothing is carved in stone yet.

[pbangarth]

Just a reminder, any time another team member wants to cast a spell into a Focus, or whenever actually, Mandala can add 9 dice to the Test through Aid Sorcery.

[Sephiroth]

I dunno, man. 24 Build Points just for that is not only a massive waste (I'd rather just have lower Toner and upgrade later in the game -- there is a medical professional in the group you know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), but kinda cheesy to boot. I mean, is there an actual reason that he's nearly a world-level expert on the subject?

I know it's a stretch, trust me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Being many thousands of years old, I'm sure all of our characters have had more interests and passions come and go than an entire human family would have in a lifetime. I'm operating under the assumption that something like Cybertech would be no different, save that it'd be something he's immersed himself in to a farther extant than other interests he's had in the past.

But you make a good point that it's using up a lot of BP.

[pbangarth]

He knows it 'cause he wants to. Works for me.

[Seth]

Quickening them is expensive and will also disappear with the spells the fist time you project.

I'm not that mean. The spells stay on the body. If you pay karma for something, it should be very good. I'm also allowing you to repair quickened spells. I've modified the first post's section on rule clarifications

As far as BioTech group goes: In earth dawn it includes crystal tech. In the dark ages it covers prosthesis design and manufacture (those wood peg legs and metal hooks).

[Seth]

I imagine General History is being treated with its own special rules. I dunno though.

Also, Seph, any spirit can sustain a spell for you up to its Force. The spell just has to be from the same category that the spirit is linked to (which is why they're listed that way in each tradition's description). Spirits of Man are used for casting spells and, for some reason, only spells you already know. So it doesn't really matter in that regard.

General history is gift from me: you lived though it you get some points in it. More specific histories you can buy. To be honest I haven't thought much about how history skills will work, but I suspect they will be as important as a skill like "seattle street gangs", or "shadowrunner hangouts".

While spirits are sustaining spells, they are at -2 on anything else they do. Comes in too flavors:
1. for a number of combat rounds equal to their force.
2. for a number of days equal to their force, and they hate you a lot as you are slowly torturing them to death. (They loose a point of force a day IIRC)

[Seth]

Yeah, that's really confusing and sounds kind of crazy to boot. Getting rid of overcasting seems to be make a lot more sense if that's your issue. I mean, what if you don't actually want to completely obliterate your target, and how can other forms of attack keep up? And more importantly, how can people defend against things like that?

There are been a few threads on this topic since I joined dumpshock. The only consensus seems to be that the damage spells don't work. However in the interests of not turning this into another "damage spells are broken thread" I'll remove the house rule. If it actually turns into a problem, then we can do something about it.

I have edited the original post to remove this.

Also, did you still want to know what Alacia has to "convince" us to help her with this mission?

Yes I should have remade that request:
@Pbangarth: pretty sure she has that copy of your formula.
@Ol'scratch: Maybe she has one of your 2 missing foci

[Seth]

Seth, are Knowledge Skills exempt from the limitation of rating 6 and 5 skills? It's always been a bit hazy to me in the default rules

In the standard rules IIRC you can have 1 knowledge skill at 6, or 2 at 5. Its the same as for active skills, but you could have 1 active skill at 6, and 1 knowledge skill at 6.

I hadn't though about this at all. Sure: Have as many knowledge skills as you want at 6.

[Ol' Scratch]

@Ol'scratch: Maybe she has one of your 2 missing foci

Yes, that's what I was considering; I had already written up a nice description of it just in case. I just wasn't sure if you still wanted us to offer up ideas in that regard. I'm thinking about using the weapon focus, which used to be his Heartblade back in the Fourth World, but whose threading has slowly unwoven over the Fifth World to its current state. Does that work for you?

[Seth]

Yes, that's what I was considering; I had already written up a nice description of it just in case. I just wasn't sure if you still wanted us to offer up ideas in that regard. I'm thinking about using the weapon focus, which used to be his Heartblade back in the Fourth World, but whose threading has slowly unwoven over the Fifth World to its current state. Does that work for you?

That looks very good

[Seth]

No one has commented on the Security briefing. I recommend a quick read

[Ol' Scratch]

I read over it, but didn't see much to say out of character. Do you intend for us to begin plotting now? And were these intercepted Matrix files that Zero commented on, or personal information that he hacked into and commented on directly in regards to us?

[Seth]

Yes I am not that familiar with the etiquette of starting a game. My thoughts were that some of you probably want to do some information gathering about the brief. I guess I should hold off on that until the game stats. I'll hold off on answering the question you asked until then

[pbangarth]

As Mandala I will focus on the magic end of things in tactical discussions. Though, it looks from the transcript as if there is some kind of AI at play in the pyramid? Based in Room 27A, maybe?

One thing that immediately pops into Mandala's consciousness is the existence of tissue samples and astral signatures for some of the magical security staff. Would these allow Mandala to get an astral understanding of their signatures? With that, he could scam any wards they put up. Actually, all of our magicians could do so.

OK, about the overcasting, it looks as if Mandala has one of the higher Drain pools, especially if he can Absorb some magical energy, so we will have to watch to see if what he does is overpowering. Force affects not only damage, but also area of effect, and one way he might use a whole shitload of mojo is to nail a large group of opponents with a stunball. Another spell, and perhaps more important to our mission, is shattershield. Mandala may have to overcast in order to overcome a honking big astral barrier. I don't know... Aztechnology pyramid, blood magic to reduce Drain (Can you say, "Acatlozin Ahexotl", anyone?)... there could be some nasty barriers here. Like around that room 27A.

I rejected Quickening for Mandala because I thought most spells one might want to Quicken would dissipate in the astral. I will give some thought to that metamagic, but at this point I don't relish the idea of wholesale change to the PC.

And I bet Camaxtli Cenyaotl (Hmm... Cenayotl sounds more Nahuatl to me.) is in there just for Mandala, huh?

[Seth]

You can use masking to appear as one of the mages whose aura you know. This should work for getting past wards: if you are good enough...mu ha ha

Aztechnology pyramid, blood magic to reduce Drain (Can you say, "Acatlozin Ahexotl", anyone?)... there could be some nasty barriers here. Like around that room 27A.

You think? More evil laughs

And I bet Camaxtli Cenyaotl (Hmm... Cenayotl sounds more Nahuatl to me.) is in there just for Mandala, huh

Personalisation. Thats what makes missions memorable. I suggest you don't try and solo him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

@Ol Scratch: You were asking about knowledge skills. It looked a good list. Perhaps "4th age remnants" could be added.

[Ol' Scratch]

@Ol Scratch: You were asking about knowledge skills. It looked a good list. Perhaps "4th age remnants" could be added.

I've seen that mentioned a few times in these threads and I keep forgetting to ask: Is this an established skill in the game, and if so where can I find it? If not, what does it revolve around? I've never heard of it before this game.

Also I saw that you were looking for suggestions on how to make Watcher Spirits better at their task. A house rule we've used for the longest time is that they can be summoned at any Force, just like any other spirit, but with the caveat that the conjurer can only summon a combined Force of (Charisma x 2) at any give time. Thus a conjurer with Charisma 4 can have one Force 8 Watcher, two Force 4 Watchers, eight Force 1 Watchers, or any combination thereof active at any given time. To keep them from being abused in combat, the Attack Dog service is changed so that they simply whiz around and annoy combatants (giving you a Friends in Melee bonus) but are wholly unable to attack anyone. Instead, their Astral Combat skill is replaced by the Infiltration and Shadowing skills.

I believe we changed the rules for Drain with them, too, but I don't have my notebook handy to double check.

Regardless, it's worked fairly well for us, and makes them a valuable resource for magicians without upping the magician's combat prowess.

That said: Yikes. I had this surreal dream last night that was inspiration for a character for this type of campaign. It's driving me nuts now, cause I keep scribbling down ideas on how to make him work and it all looks really promising. Stupid dreams...

[Sephiroth]

4th Age Remnants is not an established skill, because almost no shadowrunner PC's are even going to know that there was a world of magic before the current one, and they certainly won't know how to identify leftover things and people from the 4th world because they wouldn't even know that there are any.

That reminds me. Pbangarth, your 4th Age Remnants is listed as an active skill, but I get the impression from Seth that it's a knowledge skill. Congratulations, you just got more BP to shift around.

As for the watcher thing, I kinda like being able to use watchers as crappy astral attack dogs. Another thing you could do is give a watcher bonus dice for its Search power equal to its summoner's Magic, and maybe equal to half its summoner's Magic for assensing (because otherwise it'll fail epically most of the time when placed in a guard dog role, due to its awesome 2 dice for assensing).

[Ol' Scratch]

As for the watcher thing, I kinda like being able to use watchers as crappy astral attack dogs.

Not much changes in that regard, actually. In higher powered campaigns in particular, watchers can't do any damage to a target. If they do hit (using 2 dice to attack, meaning 1/3ish times they're going to critically glitch), they only do one point of damage. A completely unarmored astral form with only a Body of 3 has an extremely good chance of resisting that even without defending against it in any way. Considering that you wouldn't even need watchers helping you out in that circumstance, and it's even more pointless. The only time you'd need the backup, such as fighting a powerful free spirit or projecting mage, all they could provide is the Friends in Melee bonus. Which, as you'll note in my suggestion above, is still a 'service' they can provide.