Rules questions, Simple rules questions that I can't seen to find in the book Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Juca Bala]

Hi guys, my group was stalled for a long time and we came back to playing it yesterday. As normal, some questions arrived, questions in simple things that we forget and, in a rapid search in the core rulebook, I can't seen to find, so here they come:
- Firing a bow is a simple or a complex action?
- Can anyone split his dice pool to perform more than one action at the same time (like shooting two throwning knifes) like magicians can do with spells?
- What is the range for the vision enhancers like thermographic vision and ultrasound vision? Can any of these detect invisible persons?

Thanks!

[Thanee]

Bows use the Fire Weapon Simple Action (the standard ranged combat rules apply to projectile weapons, p. 155 SR4A), but they need to be readied with the Ready Weapon Simple Action, in order to fire (p. 147 SR4A), as stated in their description on p. 315 SR4A.

You can split your dice pool when attacking with Pistols or SMGs (see Attacker Using a Second Firearm, p. 150 SR4A) or in melee (see Multiple Targets, p. 158 SR4A).

I don't think there are any range restrictions stated, so assume line of sight (or use common sense, if it is really outrageous).
Ultrasound does detect invisible persons (see Ultrasound, p. 333 SR4A), because it is sound-based not vision-based.

Bye
Thanee

[Juca Bala]

Thanks, Thanee!

[Manunancy]

Sound speed in air is about 350 m/s (1000 feet/s). Which means ultrasound sights quickly gets useless to fire at moving objects because of the lag - you don't see the guy, but where he was some fractions of second earlier.

My rough take would be that 25m is about as far as you can go in a moving engagement, though you can probably deal with the scenery and slow moving objects up to 100m. But at that range you'll have a hard time picking any sort of detail.

[Mr Clock]

Split dice pools for simultaneous actions?

I assume you mean throwing two knives at once, not shooting two knives out of the air. Top of my head? Sure, why not? Works with guns. You need knives in hand first, a simple action for half your Agility (round down). You split your dice pool, suffer -2 for your offhand, and an additional -2 if throwing at a second target. Assume you have knives out and ready, Agility 4, Throwing 4.

Both knives at one target: roll 4 dice and 2 dice (or 3 on each).
One each at two targets: roll 3 and 1 (or 2 on each).

Sound reasonable?

Invisibility and ultrasound, one of the classics.

The standard issue invisibility spell affects the minds of viewers. It is fully effective against any living targets within direct line of sight. It does work against a guard looking through thermographic goggles down the end of the open hallway. It does not help against the guard watching the cameras from the security room, because there is no direct line of sight from him to the character.

Improved invisibility is a physical spell. It bends light to generate a cloaking effect. It is effective against technological sensors as well as people. Assuming the cameras are just your plain old digital video types, improved invisibility will keep you safe from the guy in the security room.

This is where things can get nasty for you, because it's these technical distinctions that are important. Improved invisibility only affects visual sensors that rely on visible light. It doesn't make you invisible to thermographics, because those are reading your body heat. It doesn't work against MAD scanners or milliwave systems, and it has no effect on ultrasound sensors. Technically, if you're bending the light around you, you yourself would have no way to see while the spell is in effect...but I don't think this has ever really been addressed for reasons of sanity.

tl;dr

Two throwing weapons at once - treat it exactly like two firearms.
Invisibility (mana version) is a Jedi mind trick against all living creatures within "line of sight".
Improved invisibility makes you invisible to cameras and Mk 1 eyeballs, but doesn't work against thermo, radar, ladar, et cetera.

[TheOOB]

Split dice pools for simultaneous actions?

I assume you mean throwing two knives at once, not shooting two knives out of the air. Top of my head? Sure, why not? Works with guns. You need knives in hand first, a simple action for half your Agility (round down). You split your dice pool, suffer -2 for your offhand, and an additional -2 if throwing at a second target. Assume you have knives out and ready, Agility 4, Throwing 4.

Both knives at one target: roll 4 dice and 2 dice (or 3 on each).
One each at two targets: roll 3 and 1 (or 2 on each).

Sound reasonable?

Invisibility and ultrasound, one of the classics.

The standard issue invisibility spell affects the minds of viewers. It is fully effective against any living targets within direct line of sight. It does work against a guard looking through thermographic goggles down the end of the open hallway. It does not help against the guard watching the cameras from the security room, because there is no direct line of sight from him to the character.

Improved invisibility is a physical spell. It bends light to generate a cloaking effect. It is effective against technological sensors as well as people. Assuming the cameras are just your plain old digital video types, improved invisibility will keep you safe from the guy in the security room.

This is where things can get nasty for you, because it's these technical distinctions that are important. Improved invisibility only affects visual sensors that rely on visible light. It doesn't make you invisible to thermographics, because those are reading your body heat. It doesn't work against MAD scanners or milliwave systems, and it has no effect on ultrasound sensors. Technically, if you're bending the light around you, you yourself would have no way to see while the spell is in effect...but I don't think this has ever really been addressed for reasons of sanity.

tl;dr

Two throwing weapons at once - treat it exactly like two firearms.
Invisibility (mana version) is a Jedi mind trick against all living creatures within "line of sight".
Improved invisibility makes you invisible to cameras and Mk 1 eyeballs, but doesn't work against thermo, radar, ladar, et cetera.

Post failed for posting house rules in a rules question thread without specifically noting it.

Off the top of my head, the only way to split your dice pool for multiple actions is casting multiple spells, firing multiple guns, and using a melee weapon to attack multiple targets.

A note, vision mods cannot see people who are invisible by magic as it overcomes all forms of vision. As mentioned, ultrasound is not vision and thus can "see" invisible targets.

[Mardrax]

Improved invisibility only affects visual sensors that rely on visible light. It doesn't make you invisible to thermographics, because those are reading your body heat.

Thermographic vision does not measure body heat, it measures infrared light, as reflected off, or mostly emitted by objects. It is an entirely visual sense.

This might also apply to radar and its ilk, especially when a creature has a natural sense for it, since those rely on EM waves just as much as visual light does. Needing a device to produce the wave is the case with visual light as well. There really is nothing to differentiate between the two but the wavelength of the waves used.

[Mr Clock]

My mistake. RAW, then, no. One throwing attack with a readied weapon, one simple action. Regarding thermal, I'll concede that point too, but does that mean you don't need thermal dampening on a stealth suit? I just don't see ultrasound defeating Improved Invisibility. The spell deflects light, not sound. I'd need to check the spell design rules to see how strict the definitions are, but light and sound seem pretty clearly different to me. One last thing...if you extend the definition to cover senses like radar or EM, what happens to incoming team comms?

[Thanee]

This...

I just don't see ultrasound defeating Improved Invisibility.

does not match this...

The spell deflects light, not sound. I'd need to check the spell design rules to see how strict the definitions are, but light and sound seem pretty clearly different to me.

Thermographic Vision is, indeed, a bit weird. It is a visual sense working in the infrared spectrum (and Invisibility is effective against it), but it does pick up heat signatures in a way (I guess that heat signatures are visible on the infrared spectrum then), since Thermal Damping (specifically) works against it.

Bye
Thanee

[Mr Clock]

Gak! Messed that up, didn't I? Sorry, typing on the phone, reversed the order while editing. To clarify: ultrasound beats improved invisibility, as the spell does not affect sound. Regular invisibility beats ultrasound because it dupes the observer, not the device. On the case of improved invisibility versus thermographic, it seems to be a question of how the spell defines 'light' for figuring what emissions or reflections or otherwise are affected. Good discussion, just hankering for some answers.

[Thanee]

Regular invisibility beats ultrasound because it dupes the observer, not the device.

I'm not sure about that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Invisibility only affects the mind by removing the person from any direct, visual sense.

But if the person "sees" the invisible mage via a camera, the mage would appear there.
Likewise, if the person "sees" the invisible mage via an ultrasound device, the mage would appear there.

Because the spell only affects the direct, visual sense.

Bye
Thanee

[Ol' Scratch]

Regular invisibly doesn't do anything against an ultrasound, because the person isn't invisible to the device, nor does the spell affect the "sketch" the device produces of the person. It's like saying that Invisibility makes the person disappear from every video recording or photograph ever taken of him.

[Pyritefoolsgold]

Regular invisibly doesn't do anything against an ultrasound, because the person isn't invisible to the device, nor does the spell affect the "sketch" the device produces of the person. It's like saying that Invisibility makes the person disappear from every video recording or photograph ever taken of him.

You're right, regular invisibility shows up normally to ultrasound sensors, but if the person using said sensors is in line of sight of the invisible mage, then his mind is refusing to see what his eyes are showing him. It's a mental illusion.

[toturi]

- Firing a bow is a simple or a complex action?

Thanks!

Older thread that discusses this

[Ol' Scratch]

You're right, regular invisibility shows up normally to ultrasound sensors, but if the person using said sensors is in line of sight of the invisible mage, then his mind is refusing to see what his eyes are showing him. It's a mental illusion.

No, he just doesn't see them visually. But he still sees the digital display of the mage, and can put 2 and 2 together to get "there's an invisible guy over there." Just like he'd see him on a live video display. And on that note, Improved Invisibility would help with the latter, but not the former since the latter is a visual sensor while the former is sound.

"It's a mental illusion" just means it only effects a living target who has a mind to affect. Ultrasound, video cameras, radar, thermosense, and etc. still picks him up just fine.

[Juca Bala]

Well, sorry for bringing up my old post (also, it is not that old, right?) but I came to another probably dumb question: what is the condition modifier of small drones? The ones with 0 to 1 body? Am I right that they still have 8 boxes in they condition monitor? This sounds a little excessive. There is some rule that I am not finding? Thanks again!

[Yerameyahu]

IIRC, Body 0 means effectively a 1-box condition monitor. I don't recall the page, sorry. Remember that a Body 1 is going to lose boxes plenty fast, because it has so few dice to resist with.

[James McMurray]

I can't find anything that says microdrones get only one box, but with 0 Body and 0 armor those 8 boxes aren't going to last long at all.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* I could've sworn there's a rule that Body 0 means any hit kills them. Sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[James McMurray]

I'm pretty sure there was in SR3, and just because I didn't find it doesn't mean it's not there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that in Running Wild, Animals with a Body of 0 die in a single hit. However, This would not make a lot of sense to me to translate that to Technology, especially vehicles. I like my Body 0 and 1 Drones haveing 8 Boxes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

No reason to. Body 0 drones are tiny and fragile.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No reason to. Body 0 drones are tiny and fragile.

I know, but still... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bira]

- What is the range for the vision enhancers like thermographic vision and ultrasound vision? Can any of these detect invisible persons?

Low-light and thermographic have the same range as your normal vision. Ultrasound probably has a similar range as well. I don't think the rules go into detail about sonar lag and such, so you don't need to bother with that if you don't want to.

[Yerameyahu]

Thermo can't detect invisible, because it's still in the light spectrum, and it's a sense, not a sensor. Ultrasound is both a sensor (not a sense) and explicitly beats invisibility. It should have a range based on Signal, but mistakes were made (for one, it should be a Sensor, not a Vision Enhancement). I'd go with Signal 1 (40m) or less, I guess; I'm not an expert on ultrasound vision technology. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I also feel like this question must have been addressed before, but I can't recall.