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> LoS and AoE spells
Mardrax
post Feb 28 2011, 11:34 PM
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A question which just occured to me in the Making the most out of magic thread:

Since people tend to handwave LoS for people behind the caster for counterspelling purposes, do you apply this handwavium to LoS for AoE spells as well?

Also, would you ever allow anyone to "edit" themselves out of their own LoS?
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 28 2011, 11:41 PM
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I'll have to consult the actual RAW, but I thought that AOE in SR4 meant multiple LOS, not 'grenades'. Or maybe it's just elemental spells?
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Edana
post Feb 28 2011, 11:45 PM
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Indirect spells are essentially grenades. Direct are multi-LOS.

I'd generally use the same LOS rule for AOE as counterspelling, just to keep it consistent. I don't think you can edit yourself out of a spell's AOE though, since targeting can also be established by touch, and you're always in contact with yourself.
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Mardrax
post Mar 1 2011, 12:09 AM
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Simsense can override touch as well though...
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WyldKnight
post Mar 1 2011, 12:10 AM
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No, it overrides the sensation of touch. Not the action itself.
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Mardrax
post Mar 1 2011, 01:59 AM
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Being able to perceive (by sight, touch or astral sense) is what targeting of spellcasting is about though. I don't have a clue where you'd think this "action" comes in.

The statement that you're always able to detect touching yourself if a fairly thin one even. Propriosepsis tends to rule that out by default.

Interesting related question:
Could a paraplegic cast spells with a touch vector through anything but his head? He's unable to perceive anywhere else. How about when blind as well?
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WyldKnight
post Mar 1 2011, 02:04 AM
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As in I don't feel myself touching him but I am still physically in contact with them. By your definition if someone has nerve damage and can't feel himself touch the person then spells wouldn't work for them through touch.
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TheOOB
post Mar 1 2011, 02:16 AM
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A touch spell is channeled via direct physical contact, whether or not you feel it is irrelevant.
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TheOOB
post Mar 1 2011, 02:16 AM
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EDIT: Double Post
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WyldKnight
post Mar 1 2011, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (TheOOB @ Feb 28 2011, 07:16 PM) *
A touch spell is channeled via direct physical contact, whether or not you feel it is irrelevant.


Thank you, that's what I was trying to say.
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Makki
post Mar 1 2011, 02:54 AM
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it's the touch of the aura. not skin touch. that's why it works through cloth and kevlar
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WyldKnight
post Mar 1 2011, 02:55 AM
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Didn't say anything about skin. Just saying physical contact is the necessary element and whether or not you can feel it is irrelevant.
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Mardrax
post Mar 1 2011, 04:42 AM
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Alright. Clear.

About the first portion though: can one make Powerball a cone shaped AoE by depositing it directly in front of one's face? Or does it "enjoy" the same LoS handwavium counterspelling tends to? Can the player choose between the two? If it does while counterspelling doesn't, this is an even more interesting answer of course.

Assuming one doesn't see oneself, does one target oneself with this Powerball anyway? And the questions to follow a positive answer there: can one include sight vector and touch vector targetting on the same casting of a spell without multicasting? How about including a touched invisible enemy and a sighted one 4 meters away in the same Powerball?

I'm just looking for people's thoughts, as I think a RAW bases would be hard to find for most cases. If I'm just ignorant though, I'd gladly have it pointed out to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/read.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 1 2011, 04:51 AM
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Isn't Powerball a Direct? It's multi-LOS, not AOE. I thought. Fireball, on the other hand…
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Mardrax
post Mar 1 2011, 05:01 AM
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Powerball is a direct spell, with an area target.
Area targetting spells hit all applicable targets within F meters of the target spot, if they are within LoS of the caster.

Indirect combat spells are the sole exception of the last prerequisite. There are very little, if any questions there whatsoever. You're within F meters? You get burned. Even if you're buried in 3 meters of concrete and invisible.

There's no such thing as "multi-LoS" beyond that, and it is the default.
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WyldKnight
post Mar 1 2011, 06:13 AM
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QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 28 2011, 09:01 PM) *
You get burned. Even if you're buried in 3 meters of concrete and invisible.

There's no such thing as "multi-LoS" beyond that, and it is the default.


The invisible part is true because invisible doesn't protect you from things like fire, electricity, or gravity. But last time I checked physical spells (not mana spells) follow all physical rules. They mention that electricity spells in water get extra range and fire spells are weakened. If they follow basic laws like that then obviously a wall should stop it as well.
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Irion
post Mar 1 2011, 06:54 AM
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They do not follow the blast laws, as they do not weaken per Meter. The area is just striken with elementals power. And eveything in this area...

From the Raw point I think (but I can't put my finger on) Mardraxs is right.

Even though the jack in the heavy box getting fried, well does not feel right. But I think it is raw. (It is quite nasty against vehicles though.)
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WyldKnight
post Mar 1 2011, 07:09 AM
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Actually after reading it I believe you're mistaken.

As they travel down the link to the chosen target such ef-
fects may be impeded by physical obstacles or mana barriers. They may
impact transparent obstacles (such as glass) and do not “bounce” off
reflective surfaces used for line of sight. Instead the spell takes effect at
the point of contact with an obstructing barrier.

Right there it says it will take effect with an obstructing barrier meaning things can stop it and it may be impeded by physical obstacles meaning the effect can be stopped by cover. It also says that non living objects roll their Armor x 2 vs the damage so a wall could protect you against it just like it would protect you from bullets.

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Irion
post Mar 1 2011, 07:45 AM
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@WyldKnight
Thats all pre hitting the designated area, I think.
(I do not know where you get your information from.)
QUOTE ("Core Book 195")
Other
spells affect all valid targets within an area, defined as a circle
with a radius equal to the spell’s force in meters (see Area Spell,
p. 173).

And everyone (on a flat area) is hit with the same force. So the spell has no "center".
So as a matter of fact I think I am correct. But it would be a silly ruling, because you could fry the crew of a tank by throwing a Fireball close to the tank.
On the other Hand, indirect combat spells are otherwise quite week.
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WyldKnight
post Mar 1 2011, 07:59 AM
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I get it from the 20th Anniversary Edition.

Page 183 says

If the target is also protected by Counterspelling (p. 185), she may add Counterspelling
dice to this resistance test. This Opposing dice pool is further modi-
fied by any positive cover modifier the target might benefit from (see
Defender/Target has Partial Cover or Good Cover, p. 160).

It says cover matters. If cover matters then physical objects stop physical spells.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 1 2011, 08:10 AM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 1 2011, 03:45 PM) *
@WyldKnight
Thats all pre hitting the designated area, I think.
(I do not know where you get your information from.)

And everyone (on a flat area) is hit with the same force. So the spell has no "center".
So as a matter of fact I think I am correct. But it would be a silly ruling, because you could fry the crew of a tank by throwing a Fireball close to the tank.
On the other Hand, indirect combat spells are otherwise quite week.

SR4A, p203
"Indirect Combat spells create an external damaging medium (often elemental in nature) that is used to attack the target"

I'm pretty sure this means that cover protects from an indirect, AoE spell. The whole "shtick" of Indirect spells is that they create real, physical effects. So a real fireball won't fry people 3m under concrete etc...

*edit* Also, you resist Indirect spells with Body + Armor = that pretty much guarantees that cover also protects.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 1 2011, 08:15 AM
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QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Mar 1 2011, 02:13 PM) *
The invisible part is true because invisible doesn't protect you from things like fire, electricity, or gravity. But last time I checked physical spells (not mana spells) follow all physical rules. They mention that electricity spells in water get extra range and fire spells are weakened. If they follow basic laws like that then obviously a wall should stop it as well.

This still confuses me too. Physical / Mana spells are both Direct Combat spells, and so don't really follow physical rules. Indirect Combat spells will follow physical rules, with electricity / fire / etc

I don't like this distinction in the rules and think it's confusing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Mardrax
post Mar 1 2011, 10:55 AM
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By RAW,(as per the passage Wyldknight quoted) physical obstacles only come into play if they exist between the caster and the spell's intended point of impact. Yes, if you cast an F7 fireball at a tank, the tank will be unscathed at all, while inhabitants fry.
You can't target it inside the tank though, nor behind a pane of glass. The armchair magician needs to open his window to cast Fireballs out of it, or blow up his living room. And he can't use the spying mirror to look around the corner either, or magesight goggles. Not so for Manabolts.

Once the spell hits a surface though, everything within F meters get fried, regardless of barriers and such. (as per the passage Irion quoted, and the back end of the passage Wyldknight quoted, which says Indirect damage spells do not need LoS between caster and targets within the spell's area to affect them) The barriers have a chance of being blown to bits as well, but don't have to be for the person inside to die horribly. While the gypsum wall might survive the initial fireball, the wooden supports don't.

If you want to houserule otherwise, that's fine, but this is what RAW has to say about it.
Don't agree with how that works? I can see that. So next question: would you, if you houserule to make indirect damage spells affected by barriers when taking effect, also make them subject to Chunky Salsa rules?
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Dahrken
post Mar 1 2011, 12:31 PM
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While RAW, this leaves some nasty questions unanswered. If an area spell hitting one side of a concrete wall can extend it's effects on the other side without needing to breach the wall first, what does prevent it from filling each and every non-solid filled space in it's area of effect with destructive energies ?

Like, say, the free room inside your fireproofed helmet or between your insulating clothing and your body (negating worn armor completely), or even the air volume inside your lungs, mouth and assorted airways ?
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Mar 1 2011, 01:40 PM
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I call shenanigans, I think you are reading WAY much into the rules and not interpreting them.
So, the best way for me to stop a tank is cast fireball just outside of it to fry the entire crew inside? Shenanigans!!!
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