Hacking: Talent over Warez?, or: Which trumps, brains or toys? (Tweak not House Rule) Options

[Kerenshara]

We've already decided we're going to use one of two versions of the Hacking "tweak" from unwired. We still haven't decided which one to use though, because we're kind of split philosophically. Here they are:

#1) Use [Stat + Skill] Cap Hits @ Program RTG (like spell force).

#2) Use [Program RTG + Skill] Cap Hits @ Stat

The first says basically a person is only as good as their tools.

The second says it takes a smart person to get the BEST out of their tools.

So with #1 if you have a script kiddy and a pro using the same Warez, the vet gets more hits but can't keep any more if the kiddy gets lucky.

With #2 and the same basic conditions, the kiddy will have almost the same dice pool, and the keep pools are also potentially closer.

Philosophically I could go either way. In terms of Crunchy Bitz^TM I'm more likely to go with #1 because it favors the veteran more heavily IMHO and because it's also CONSISTENT with the Magic Spell mechanics.

Thoughts? (Remember, I'm biased playing with all three DP caps in if that affects your opinion.)

-Kerenshara

[CanRay]

Back in the day, and I'm talking our days, I'd have gone with #2. Skill and ability mattered.

Even today, however, #1 is true. The tools have surpassed a lot of ability, but the truly skilled can make it get up and dance routinely, while the "Skript Kiddies of the Second Eternal September" have to rely on luck.

[Tanegar]

I favor #1, because hardly anything (that I know of) caps hits, and the one that does (spell Force) is easy to raise (although not without a cost) just by declaring a higher Force. If you take #2, the hacker has to spend precious karma raising the maximum number of hits he can use; it will tend to make him hyperspecialize. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if that's the kind of group you have, but if you have a small group where everybody needs to cover multiple bases, it can cause problems.

[CanRay]

Overspecialization bites a lot of people in the hoop. If the Rigger is the only one that can do any kind of driving, and he catches a bullet on his way back from the Stuffer Shack...

[Epicedion]

#1 seems to jive more with reality and the rest of the game systems. A highly trained person with a crappy program is going to be limited by the program, but a really shoddy hacker with a fantastic program still won't be very good.

[Mardrax]

Limited by the program? A reality? You should see some of the stuff I've seen people do in MsPaint (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I think it depends on how viable you want scriptkids to be. While they're unlikely to have high skills, or a high Logic, they're fairly likely to have a rating 6 set of programs. Having a cap of 6 successes means little for them in general. Having 6 extra dice, instead of (Logic) extra dice does. Especially when capped at an ammount of successes you're not going to make on average anyways.

[Fatum]

Sorry, I can't read your post.
Have you tried using bold italic, coloured randomly?

[CanRay]

Too long. Did not read.

[Fatum]

Nah, I'm ok with long posts, as long as they have any meaning.
Using StYlEs has none.

[Tanegar]

Or you could pull your panties out of your crack and try not to be quite such a douche. The OP is perfectly readable. If you don't care for the font, that's one thing, but to suggest that the post is automatically unworthy of your, doubtless godlike, attention just because it uses that font is a dick move.

Edit: Sorry, that first bit was uncalled-for. Nevertheless, my point stands. You, sir, made a dick move.

[Epicedion]

Limited by the program? A reality? You should see some of the stuff I've seen people do in MsPaint (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I think it depends on how viable you want scriptkids to be. While they're unlikely to have high skills, or a high Logic, they're fairly likely to have a rating 6 set of programs. Having a cap of 6 successes means little for them in general. Having 6 extra dice, instead of (Logic) extra dice does. Especially when capped at an ammount of successes you're not going to make on average anyways.

I go back and forth on this one. Sure "a bad craftsman is the first to blame his tools," but at the same time the quality of tools limits the quality of work after a certain point. The world's greatest race car driver is going to lose an F1 race if he has to drive a VW Beetle (at the same time, a really crappy driver in the world's greatest car isn't going to do so hot either).

So I think that #1 is more likely to lead to situations where veteran hackers with low-rated programs are going to max out the effectiveness of their programs almost every time, which, I think, is more realistic. Also I would never expect anyone to have low enough rated programs for it to matter (how often is anyone really going to get 6 successes?), since there's no compelling reason not to.

Maybe a completely different system would work better: (Stat + Skill)/2 + Program RTG, for example. Then at the very least you couldn't afford to skimp on Logic. A little throwback to Hacking Pool, maybe, but not too crazy.

[Fatum]

Or you could pull your panties out of your crack and try not to be quite such a douche. The OP is perfectly readable. If you don't care for the font, that's one thing, but to suggest that the post is automatically unworthy of your, doubtless godlike, attention just because it uses that font is a dick move.

Edit: Sorry, that first bit was uncalled-for. Nevertheless, my point stands. You, sir, made a dick move.

Or you could stop turning text into gibberish for no reason whatsoever besides showing how "special" you are.

[Tanegar]

Definition of GIBBERISH
: unintelligible or meaningless language:

I'm pretty sure changing the font doesn't render a sentence unintelligible or meaningless. Maybe my initial comment was called for, after all.

[Seth]

I think both options suck.

• I like it when people benefit from rolling well.
• I like it when not every hacker is identical: now you are forcing them to all have logic maxed, and they are rubbish without it, which reduces the personalisation of hackers.

If you want to change the system (which I think works ok) why not move to skill + stat, with an equipment modifier. Give their set of programs a rating (and to be honest almost every hacker has the same ratings in all their programs), and if the program rating > skill add +1 to the roll as an equipment modifier, if it is less subtract one. That works almost as well and doesn;t spoil the fun of people getting lucky.

[Tanegar]

I like it when not every hacker is identical: now you are forcing them to all have logic maxed, and they are rubbish without it, which reduces the personalisation of hackers.

Only in the sense that magicians are "forced" to max out Magic, Willpower, and their secondary Drain stat, or street sams are "forced" to max out Agility, Intutition, and Reaction. If you want to be good at something, you must have the capability. Should the IOC accept overweight couch potatoes into gymnastic competitions in order to have a more varied field of contestants?

[Fatum]

I'm pretty sure changing the font doesn't render a sentence unintelligible or meaningless. Maybe my initial comment was called for, after all.

I'm pretty sure it makes it rather unintelligible.
Advocating font changes is like advocating public defecation: "I can do whatever I want, and it's none of your business! Turn away if you don't like it!"

[Tanegar]

If it's unintelligible, how were you able to respond to it? Anyway, I'm tired of playing with you, troll. Go on back to your trollhole now.

[Fatum]

I am not responding to its contents, because the OP has made everything for me not to be able to read it. That is, it is unintelligible.
And of course asking to follow the basic rules of netiquette is trolling. Tell me more tales like that.

[phlapjack77]

#1) Use [Stat + Skill] Cap Hits @ Program RTG (like spell force).

This has my vote. I think any good hacker won't be too limited by the program rating, as they will be able to get 6+ when it starts to be a limiting factor.

I think there's another thread that lists a con for this approach, have to find it later...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

At our table, Kerenshara, we use option 1. Skill + Stat, Capped by Program Rating. The better the program, the more your native skills and intelligence can shine. It has worked wonderfully well. We have been using it for a while now, and it has done something quite nice. Hackers now tend to have an actual Logic Stat greater than 2. Of course, either of your choices would force that, but I have always preferred that the deciding factor be the tools that you are working with. If you have exceptional tools, you may get exceptional results. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I mean, really, with Option 1, you actually have a valid use for programs rated below 6. Hell, even now, I have a hacker who uses rated 3-4 programs, because they are cheaper (and thus allow me to spend more Nuyen elsewhere), and because the hacker in question cannot reliably obtain more than 3-4 hits per roll. Win, Win.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree: neither one is a great idea. Hacking isn't like magic. Hacking is supposed to be for everyone, and this just makes it exclusive. There's plenty of room (probably too much!) in the existing rules for novahots to excel. Why are you trying to simultaneously nerf the experts *and* the normals?

As always, I'm speaking in general; do what you enjoy in your own game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seth]

I agree: neither one is a great idea. Hacking isn't like magic. Hacking is supposed to be for everyone, and this just makes it exclusive. There's plenty of room (probably too much!) in the existing rules for novahots to excel. Why are you trying to simultaneously nerf the experts *and* the normals?

Nicely said.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree: neither one is a great idea. Hacking isn't like magic. Hacking is supposed to be for everyone, and this just makes it exclusive. There's plenty of room (probably too much!) in the existing rules for novahots to excel. Why are you trying to simultaneously nerf the experts *and* the normals?

From practical Play Experience, capping Hits to Program rating has no real effect in nerfing the experts (Same system mages use afterall). It MAY, on occassion, stop a single hit from applying, but that is very rare indeed. The hacker would need 18 Dice to reliably hit 6 successes on average, and that is not the easiest thing to obtain using even the normal system. Average Professional Hackers (from the Unwired Book) are rolling 11-13 Dice with this system (Option 1, note they would have been rolling 12-14 dice otherwise, witrh a possible +3 in non-stressful situation due to Nanite support, if any). It works for EVERYONE, and treats them all the same. After all, it is the exact same mechanic that the Magic Slingers use, and I don't see them being nerfed.

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, if this applied to 'Hacking programs' and not other kinds (Common Use, etc.), that would be *less* objectionable, but I'd still go by my last comment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm not talking about average expected numbers, Tymeaus. If a player rolls 10 and you say, 'screw you, you get 5', that is a Sad Player™. In addition, magic characters can choose Force at will, and well above the 6 limit that any SR hacker should have (because 7+ is milspec, dammit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). And magic is special, hacking is everyone. Hehe.

If anything, these changes do the opposite of their intention: they make experts and kiddies more similar. The expert will more reliably get a couple more hits, but they have the same max. Hacking is now about being Mr. Lucky with Edge.

[Inncubi]

I already play with caps on hits on every, relevant, roll at skill rating x2.

Kerensahara, how do you make the caps work together?

Say a Hacker with Computer 2 is using and edit 3 program, is he capped by 4 or 6 successes?

Do you make both rules go? Do you have one overrule the other?

And yes this is in support of the freedom to use scripts whenever you want to.