Character Creation vs. Spending Karma in game, or: Why not specialize at Chargen? Options

[TygerTyger]

I've seen a number of posts here about how binding spirits at Chargen is a waste of points, ditto buying Skill Specializations. There seems to be almost a universal consensus that its best to wait until you have some karma for that. Why is that? I'm a rookie when it comes to SR4, so I know I am missing something.

Is it just the low cost of Specializing at only 2 Karma? Or is it something else? Seems that 2 BP for a Specialization (or as I look at it 10K nuyen) is a fair deal.

What am I missing?

[Makki]

Is it just the low cost of Specializing at only 2 Karma?

that. you will probably survive the first run without the spec. before the 2nd, you can use the earned karma

[sabs]

and 2bp = 4 karma effectively. Maybe a bit more, if you consider that 2 specializations = 1 skill from a 5 to a 6, which is much more karma than that.

[TygerTyger]

and 2bp = 4 karma effectively. Maybe a bit more, if you consider that 2 specializations = 1 skill from a 5 to a 6, which is much more karma than that.

Ah. That's it right there. Makes all kinds of sense now. 4 Build Points buys what it would take 12 Karma to achieve.

Thanks!

[Mäx]

Ah. That's it right there. Makes all kinds of sense now. 4 Build Points buys what it would take 12 Karma to achieve.

Thanks!

Thats why karma gen is so much better, gets rid of stupid meta-gaming decisions like that.

[TygerTyger]

Thats why karma gen is so much better, gets rid of stupid meta-gaming decisions like that.

Those are the rules in RC? I may have to look them over, as they seem to be afforded a great deal of respect by the experienced folk around here.

[sabs]

Those are the rules in RC? I may have to look them over, as they seem to be afforded a great deal of respect by the experienced folk around here.

No the Karma Gen rules in RC sucks donkeyballs the world over.

What you need is the German Errata RC Karma Gen rules. Or if your search-fu is good, you can look for AncientHIstory's posted errata/update.

key differences:
ratingx5 karma cost for stats (not 3)
race cost=BP cost in Karma

[Ol' Scratch]

Eh, I've never really cared about that angle. I love specializations if for no other reason than they help me focus my ideas better. And even from a metagaming perspective, it's not always a 'waste,' especially if it's a specialization for a skill you'd otherwise never use. Several skills also have specializations that cover such a large amount of ground that there's no point in not taking it; 2 BP for +2 Skill is quite a good investment. Pilot Ground Craft (Wheeled) is probably the most telling example of such a skill and its specialization. And yes, that's a real specialization for it. Most Combat Skills are the same way. Why not take Unarmed Combat (Martial Art Style) or Blades (Swords) if that's all you're ever going to use anyway?

I mean, sure, the price logic is still in play, but for skills like that? You're not really crippling yourself at all during character creation. It's not like the specialization you bought at character creation is going to disappear as soon as you use it. (Which, incidentally, is the brunt of why buying bound spirits is a waste.)

[Glyph]

That's how I feel. They may be "cheaper" after the game begins, but they are cheap enough that I usually get a few - generally either for my character's main skill(s), or to boost up a low-rated skill that I will still use regularly.

[Whipstitch]

I'm one of those guys that tends to put off specializations, but I certainly wouldn't call it a hard and fast rule. One point to consider, after all, is that Awakened characters and Technomancers have post-chargen options that you can improve with karma that simply are not available (Or in the case of spells are limited) with BP. So in their case in particular I tend to view Karma as being a bit more valuable than the usual 1bp=2 Karma status quo would imply. So, for example, if I made a stereotypical Gunslinger Adept I'd likely take a long hard look at grabbing specializations for Pistols and Dodge at chargen. That way my main shtick pools would be nice and high and I'd feel free to beeline towards Initiation so I could get my hands on Adept Centering and Item Attunement ASAP.

[TheOOB]

The baseline karma gen rules are, IMO, completely broken without implementing some houserules. They make humans worthless, and encourage you to play trolls and orks with low body scores...and the rules completely shaft awakened folk. If you GM decides to use those rules without modification, tell him you'll be playing a free spirit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyways, with the basic BP system, the costs of things are a bit different than the cost of things with karma. To start, a BP is generally worth approximately 2 Karma. This is why, for instance, it is inefficient to purchase specializations during creation, as 2 karma is not very valuable, but 2 karma is halfway to another skill rank 4. BP costs also are uniform while karma costs scale. For optimal build efficiency with the BP system, you will have attributes(and skills) that either have a high or a low rating, as a mid rating is a waste of resources(it costs 25 karma to raise an attribute from 1 to 3 with karma, but it costs 55 karma to raise an attribute from 4 to 6, you get a better karma to BP ratio by using high attributes).

The spirit issue mentioned is actually a bit more simple. Karma and BP are very important resources for awakened characters, especially magicians. Everything that increases magical power, even foci, requires karma or BP, and many magicians will find that they don't have a big use for money. That is why binding spirits is so powerful, because it's one of the few advantages a magician can get that costs only money(and some time and some drain). BP spent on spirit services could just as easily be spent on spells or skills or binding foci. The fact is, unless your GM is very stingy, you'll get more nuyen then you need as a magician, and have plenty of mats for binding spirits, but you'll always be karma starved.

[Muspellsheimr]

What you need is the German Errata RC Karma Gen rules. Or if your search-fu is good, you can look for AncientHIstory's posted errata/update.

No. The so far unreleased errata does improve Karma generation, but it does not fix it.

If you are thinking of using Karma Generation, I would suggest taking a look on the rules I wrote up for it, linked in my signature.

[Sengir]

No. The so far unreleased errata does improve Karma generation, but it does not fix it.

There is no unreleased errata...Not anymore, because at least in the past CGL apperently handled their errata docs the same way they used to handle their finances. Straight from the horse's mouth

[sabs]

No. The so far unreleased errata does improve Karma generation, but it does not fix it.

If you are thinking of using Karma Generation, I would suggest taking a look on the rules I wrote up for it, linked in my signature.

I disagree, I think that Ancient's posted fix to his Karma rules are much much better, and make for interesting characters.
I can't check your rules till tonight to see how much I hate them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (stupid firewall)

[Ryu]

There was *very* little reason to prefer BP-gen over unmodified karma-gen (as in, without the -at print time- official karmagen updates). The "German" updates bring karmagen characters more in line with their BP cousins. Still, we have not created BP-gen characters for our campaigns even after the update.

The removed urge to minmax BP usage is not present, it is easier to have rounded out skillsets, specialisations for 2 karma are a steal for almost any skill that wasn´t bought in a group.


Regarding the "fair" BP:karma ratio: I do not believe that 1:2 is the correct answer. If you take the time to compute what your groups BP-gen characters are worth in karma and the karma-gen characters worth in BP, you will find that there is a range for those rates. My personal guideline is more 1:1,5, given that I build generalists. My current 656 karma character (at chargen) is worth some 414 BP. Ressources, qualities and connections are the big 1:2 blocks.

[Mäx]

Regarding the "fair" BP:karma ratio: I do not believe that 1:2 is the correct answer. If you take the time to compute what your groups BP-gen characters are worth in karma and the karma-gen characters worth in BP, you will find that there is a range for those rates. My personal guideline is more 1:1,5, given that I build generalists. My current 656 karma character (at chargen) is worth some 414 BP. Ressources, qualities and connections are the big 1:2 blocks.

And then there's the big block of more then 1:2 that is stats 5 and higher, the ration goes up for every point.

[Ryu]

With 200 BP on attributes I struggle to get multiple 5-values, but you are certainly right. I do not value body 6+ and strength 6+ at what they cost in karma, so my orcs and trolls tend to have low to average physical attributes.

[Jhaiisiin]

Heyas, Mu... After looking at your varied erratas, it may be worthwhile to put at the head of each document a blurb on why you changed or removed things that you did. Likely you've posted it here somewhere before, but having them in the documents would keep people from having to go on long searches to try to find out "What was he thinking when he _____" on your house rules.

Just a thought.

[Tyro]

One of many, many reasons to use Karmagen.