Making games challenging, While still being fun Options

[colton]

So I recently started running a shadowrun game for the first time and I thought I would pick your brains on how to make a game challenging for all types of players. Currently I have a hacker, magician, adept, and samurai gun psycho. I'm finding that when I make things challenging for one, the others kind of sit there and watch. Just looking for ideas.

[pbangarth]

Many would argue that is as it should be. Everyone gets his time to shine, to be the one the others count on. It sounds as if you are challenging them appropriately. If one or two players do the lion's share of the work and the others just sit there for most of the game, then you have to worry.

As you play more with them, and come to know their individual interests and talents, you will be able to gear the runs more closely to their talents and give each player a sense she is an important part of the team.

[noonesshowmonkey]

Designing encounters for SR4 is maddeningly difficult compared to ye olde D&D game. The number of different rules a GM must have mastery over to keep things moving is pretty intense.

I find that SR games break down into Legwork (Street), Legwork (Matrix) and Legwork (Magic), Gunfights, Social Challenges and Stealth Challenges. When starting a game, I usually insist that characters be able to take meaningful part in at least two of these.

As for keeping everyone in the group busy during any given encounter, there are certainly some that are just spotlight shows. Designing combat encounters that challenge all the PCs can be a headache... but not so bad once you get used to things.

Hackers can be busy in basically any challenge of any type. Matrix legwork should be helpful at all times. During social challenges, a hacker can be hacking into anything in the room (or trying to hack in, at least) or feeding the face real time information updates to improve the team's bargaining. During combat, hackers can hack nearly anything. This can be as challenging to a player as a GM. What do I hack?! Anyone's hostile's commlink - once you are in you might be able to reset / disable their cyber (if any) or at least clog their AR displays with useless spam (a dice pool penalty! woo!). Hacking or spoofing security cameras, scanners, drones etc. is bread and butter.

Mages can always do astral legwork, read auras, case social spells to aid in social conflicts and toss the occasional stunball or manabolt. Easy peesy.

Cyber sammies can be a pain in the ass, as ye starting player will be playing a Gillette whose personality depth is measured in the terminal ballistics of a .45... When your only problem solving tool is [use gun on man], it can be hard to find a place for a samurai in many scenes. Thus I generally specify that players should do their best to make characters capable of engaging in at least two of the aforementioned tasks.

Riggers can run drones that give aerial maps, preserve encrypted team comms, give good security over a run area, mark targets (and even engage them), follow people etc.

A lot of keeping players busy is reminding them that they should always be seeking a way for their characters to fit into any given scene.

[CanRay]

I typically add more violence, and alter the type of violence for what they're not good at.

Challenging for everyone. No Rigger, I noticed... Oh, dear, time for Bumper Cars!

"So, which one of you guys thought 'Pilot Groundcraft' was a useless skill again?"

[colton]

All of these are good suggestions. I guess one of the main questions I have is when it comes to combat, how many is a good challenge? I guess I am too used to d&d where there is a set formula that works out pretty well. For example, in the first game I ran, I put them up against 7 gangers (admittedly, they were just grunts) and the Sammy killed them all in the first combat round. Nobody else got a shot off.

I guess my real question is that when things go fan shaped, what can I throw at them that will be 1) a suitable challenge, and 2) will actually pose a danger?

[CanRay]

A good suggestion is to make multiple groups, spread them out, have them use tactics.

The Sami can only deal with the big, tough guy (Troll maybe?) while the rest of the opponents are too far away/blocked by environment. The rest of the group can then deal with the smaller, yet challenging to them, opponents.

Also, hacker taking too much time with his stuff? Give the rest of the group stuff to do: Legwork, maintenance, paying off/collecting debts, grocery runs... All of those can be adventures.

Especially the grocery runs.

[noonesshowmonkey]

I guess my real question is that when things go fan shaped, what can I throw at them that will be 1) a suitable challenge, and 2) will actually pose a danger?

Probably one of the hardest things to do in SR, end of story.

I have been GMing shadowrun games over a decade and still can run into trouble challenging the whole group without having the distinct possibility of murdering them all. When you have a Cyber Samurai who can easily killed six men in one phase of combat, you add six men to the encounter plus an extra goon for each party member... But what happens when the Samurai doesn't go first? What happens when he misses? Then you have a host of bullet hoses spraying down on a team. What about when you have a rigger in an armored van, tear assing through downtown, hitting Lonestar pursuit vehicles with twin MMGs? Well, Lonestar says 'enough with this shit' and calls in a VTOL, the van eats an Anti-Tank Guided Missile and the whole team gets smeared. Or what about when the magic 7 initiated mage summons a massive force spirit and possesses some super-powerful goon? Etc.

Simply put, directly challenging players on a one to one level like that leads to an arms race wherein the chances of a total party kill skyrocket. Whatever overcomes a particular specialist in their niche role is more than enough to slaughter the other, less skilled party members.

This thread has a lot of decent ideas that can take standard goons and make them enough of a challenge that the PCs won't get off easily.

In general, I find it helpful to think in less abstract 'room by room' style, dungeon crawl encounters. The world of Shadowrun is very dense. If you have ever been to a slum in a developing country, you should have an appreciation for the absurd effects of population density in by-standers, junk, clutter and cover.

In D&D, an encounter is a cellular space where the PCs overcome a challenge. In SR, the space is far less defined - new neutral and hostile parties enter and exit the area with regularity, the encounter area can suddenly expand or contract based on where the PCs are going, how much noise they are making etc.

[CanRay]

The best example of this I had was the group driving around trying to throw off a tail, pull into an alleyway, and find themselves screeching to a halt so they don't hit a bunch of really big guys with a couple of briefcases, one full of UCAS Dollars and the other full of baggies of white powder. Yep, they went from one bad situation into a drug exchange!

Both sides started shooting at each other, and the group just on general principals of "YOU SNITCH!".

Turns out they also broke up a Lone Star Undercover Operation against the Vory, and things went downhill quite fast.

[jaellot]

If the combat is meant to actually be a challenge-challenge, and not just a scene of violence depicting the violent nature of the 6th World, I have no problem making my baddies like the PC's- smart, efficient, and each capable of doing their thing.

The troll PC wit ha minigun? Definitely hit him first with a Stunbolt. The Physical Adept whose things is melee/fisticuffs? Bang bang. Shoot him before he closes the distance. That sort of thing. Combat can be more than rolling initiative, shooting somebody, soak damage, if still standing repeat.

[capt.pantsless]

Avoid designing encounters.

Don't fret about fine-tuning the armor/gun/stats of the NPCs, put your energy about making interesting situations, and improvise from there. Given that there's no equivalent to the D&D "Challenge Rating" formula for figuring out how-much to throw at the PC's, I say forgetaboutit, and don't make the 'encounter' the interesting part.

I find, at least with my group, the most fun comes when everyone's wondering how the HELL to get out of whatever situation I've dropped them into, and less on who gets to roll dice. Give them situations where they need to make choices. Do they try and save the wounded girl, or take the money and run? Do they barricade themselves in and fight, or GTFO?

And above all else, never forget that you get to make stuff up. Did the PC's just walk all over the crack security team guarding Mr. and Mrs. KidnapTarget? Well, there's nothing that says you can't send in some backup to make for a thrilling chase-scene. Just don't overdo it.

[Inncubi]

Use mooks. Rational mooks.

Characters have more dice, better cyberware, nicer spells and they are 3-6 vs. you the GM thinking individual actions.
They also tend to have the "Highlander Syndrome" where they think thay can't die, with magical healing and R6 medkits.

The mooks do not have those perks, so they have to fall back to dirty tactics:

a) Don't face the team unless you have superiority in numbers.
b) Try to get the best cover positions.
c) Use suppressive fire.
d) Use cheap drones.
e) SURRENDER when slightly hurt.

e) Is very important, a slightly wounded enemy, that surrenders poses a moral problem to the team, but more importantly impairs them in a lot of ways. Its not that he'll try to make a run for it, but he might trigger an accidental alarm, he might not be as fast as the characters.

Also, mooks are more easily replaced and take less time that making a team of experts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Don't fret about fine-tuning the armor/gun/stats of the NPCs, put your energy about making interesting situations, and improvise from there. Given that there's no equivalent to the D&D "Challenge Rating" formula for figuring out how-much to throw at the PC's, I say forgetaboutit, and don't make the 'encounter' the interesting part.

Basically my advice, put more succintly and better explained.

[CanRay]

Elevation and cover. You're in a city, never forget that. Floors upon floors of people with cheap pistols and old SMGs/AK-97s.

[eyeBliss]

I think it's easiest to titrate encounter difficulty with opponenet intelligence and situational constraints. As has been mentioned, your average corp-sec employee has no interest in getting killed and is more than happy to stay behind cover. On the other hand, the longer any encounter lasts for the PCs, the lower their chances for success and the higher the chances of discovery become.

[Snow_Fox]

don't confuse 'challenge' with 'combat' sure a fight can be a hcallenge but if that is all you work you will just be ratcheing up the violence to the point that each thing is a mall flattening donny brook.

We tend to have plots and plans and double crosses and oscial interaction. Making the chracters paranoid but not so far gone that they can't order a drink in a bar without hosing the place down first.

Our games usually have theme that stretch over several sessions, IDing the theme is usually a big part of the fun,"Holy crap we're doing a...." is a fun momment since our GM's know enough to change things up so we don't dominate it once we guess. Imagine Ghostbusters, but the mob is actually behind Mr. Pecker looking for trade secrets, rather than a demon prince trying to destroy the town.

We also try to enjoy the world, the 'fluff' stuff that fills out our characters to be real people and not just numbers on a sheet.

[Mr Clock]

I like to try and tailor my scenarios so that there's X, Y and Z to accomplish, all possible in at least two ways. Want information out of this guy? You can infiltrate his social circle, get him hopped up on whatever chips he's in love with, shmooze the info out of him. Or your hacker can do a number on his commlink while he's busy getting blotto, or you can abduct him and extract the information through "hostile negotiations". Find out where he lives and slip a wireless transceiver in the Roomba. Wave your hand and ask what you like. Bingo, options for the face, hacker, sam, rigger, mage - and that's just stage one of the job. There's options for synergy there to boost the odds, it's all up to your players how they play it.

Regarding encounters, I try hard to play realistic. Limited numbers of security on site; reinforcements are usually some minutes away. Computer systems and defences need regular maintenance and that costs. Corps have to balance that cost against the risk of a shadowrun actually happening and the probable potential losses. Same goes for magical defences. Passive security systems like motion sensors, cameras, fences and lights do most of the work to act as deterrents. Can your corp really justify a twelve man team with automatics and cyberware trained in lethal defence for a local office? Maybe not, but there could easily be half a dozen a few minutes away, monitoring three sites in the area, and a link to the local law enforcement in case all three alarms go off at once. Sure, megacorporate extra-territoriality is law, but shadowrunners on the run from a job? What are the odds they're carrying illegal goods, weapons, 'ware? Lone Star will be happy to get you off the streets.

[colton]

all of these are great ideas. thank you all. very helpful.

[Draco18s]

Try to kill a player every session. Stop short, but do sincerely try.

[Mr Clock]

Try to kill a player every session. Stop short, but do sincerely try.

I love this idea. Considering I'll be playing with an actual policeman next game, I may make it "try to kill a character", but I love the sentiment.

[CanRay]

You want challenging?

Role Play issues dealing with your character's lifestyle.

Remember, more 'Runners live in places that have Landlords that aren't really that nice or respectful, or have much in the way of hygiene. And will have a couple of heavy Jazz-hittin' Trogs kick you to the curb and out of the building if you complain about the lack of maintenance to the building. If he's feeling generous, your stuff may follow you, or may be on it's way to the pawn shop.

And, no, you can't just shoot him.

[Manunancy]

From the party composition you mentionned it seems they're lacking in the social department, unless some of them can double as faces (the mage is the most likely candidate, though it may vary widely).

Make sure it's going to bite them : they don't get access to bars or clubs 'sorry sir, all tables are reserved' - who wants a bunch of dangerous-looking thugs in his club ? Especially if they sounds like they have the social skills of your average geek, and so have little reason to go in a club beyond mischief. Oh well maybe getting ditched by juste every gal they speak to is their idea of fun, but odds are the bouncers won't buy it.

Start with irritating and embarassing consequences first, then ramp up if they don't take the clue. Accidentaly insulting a touchy yakuza oyabun or maffia don can have lethal consequences.

[CanRay]

"OK, roll your Intimidation." "Um... My Intimidation skill is Ares Predator." "He spits in your face."

[colton]

actually, the gun toting psycho sammy acts as the face for the group. and he's got social skills out the wazoo, too.

[CanRay]

Great... So the INSANE guy is the face and appearance of your group. That can never go wrong.

Does he have a pink mohawk and "Bite My Snake" tattooed on his forehead?

[Glyph]

All of these are good suggestions. I guess one of the main questions I have is when it comes to combat, how many is a good challenge? I guess I am too used to d&d where there is a set formula that works out pretty well. For example, in the first game I ran, I put them up against 7 gangers (admittedly, they were just grunts) and the Sammy killed them all in the first combat round. Nobody else got a shot off.

I guess my real question is that when things go fan shaped, what can I throw at them that will be 1) a suitable challenge, and 2) will actually pose a danger?

I think the biggest problem is that you are clustering your mooks in one group, where they are easy to pick off. Have them spread out more and use cover, and mix in a few things that the others can deal with - a watcher spirit for the mage to manabolt before it can report back, spotlights or security cameras that the hacker can disable, and so on. Be careful not to throw too much at the group, if one or two characters are doing most of the heavy lifting, combat-wise - but if you spread out the opposition a bit more, the others will at least get to plink a shot or two at a security guard before it is all over.

Challenge characters in areas they are weak at, occasionally, but don't be a dick about it. Do it to add the occasional bit of tension to the game, not to go "Ha, ha, you don't have skill X, so I'm going to screw you over, without lube!"

[Mr Clock]

"Welcome to Shadowrun. Now bend over."