Sound element, Do you allow it in your games Options

[Seth]

I am currently running a mostly RAW game (non RAW for character creation, but mostly RAW after that). One of the players wants to use the "Sound" element, which as far as I can see is just better than all the others.

What do most of you do with the "Sound" element?

[Epicedion]

For spells? You can't make sound combat spells. They're stun only, and elemental effect spells have to be physical damage.

..

Okay, so I'd just make them have the same DV as physical damage spells and try not to worry about it. If your mage wants to resist 8 drain to lob a sound burst spell, more power to him. Also consider that the acid and fire spells have a chance to seriously wreck exposed gear.

Keeping some context here, compare it to what happens if you shoot a guy in the face with a 45 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) HE grenade out of your grenade launcher.

[phlapjack77]

Do you consider it that much better than a stunbolt/ball? The two seem pretty comparable, both have up- and down-sides...

Do you allow stick-n-shock ? Also, to many people, in the camp of "too good".

[Mäx]

For spells? You can't make sound combat spells.

Yes you can, street magic even list names for those in the "other elemental combat spells" side panel.

[Fortinbras]

Why is your player wanting to use "sound" and in what context is he wanting to use it. Is he making his own spell? Would the sound damage be entirely audiatory and subject to things like Select Sound Filter to determine resistance to damage, or would it be a burst that so powerful that it turned cars on end. If it's the latter, I'd say that's damage from wind due to it's power.

I think it's more likely your player got so used to magic in D&D he's trying to incorporate it's mechanical disconnect into the Shadowrun setting.

[Seth]

I think mostly the driver is that its not resisted by armour, unlike any other spell. So it just does more damage.

He is thinking of combining it with blast (talk about crazy drain) to knock cars on their end. "These are the sounds of sonic destruction".

After reading the above posts, I am minded to go ahead and see how it works. With other elements, the bad guys armor is only half the impact (mostly), and most bad guys will have damper ears. So the difference in armor is probably small.

[phlapjack77]

I think mostly the driver is that its not resisted by armour, unlike any other spell. So it just does more damage.

He is thinking of combining it with blast (talk about crazy drain) to knock cars on their end. "These are the sounds of sonic destruction".

After reading the above posts, I am minded to go ahead and see how it works. With other elements, the bad guys armor is only half the impact (mostly), and most bad guys will have damper ears. So the difference in armor is probably small.

But stunbolt also gives no armor save, AND the target doesn't get a dodge roll...

"Sounds" (hehe) like an interesting concept, I'd say it's worth allowing. From your description it doesn't seem like the player is just trying to "win" at SR with this.

[Doc Byte]

"Sound" reveals its full potential when used underwater. Unfortunately you'll have to make up your own rules as it's not considered in the rulebook.

[Makki]

just keep in mind a sensible shadowrunner doesn't want to alert more opposition than necessary. That's why every shadowrunner rolls Infiltration, to see how good he manages. That's why the sam as a silencer on his gun. Sound effect means Sound, unless he also casts silence at the target (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . We ruled, everybody in the area gets hits additional dice to hear the attack, similar to the silence spell reducing the noise.

otherwise there's nothing wrong with the idea. indirect combat spells are bad as they are due to their ridiculous drain. You can always ask the player to include the reason and the circumstances of the acquiring of the spell into the background story.

[Epicedion]

Yes you can, street magic even list names for those in the "other elemental combat spells" side panel.

In the Drain Modifiers table (Street Magic, p163) beside "Elemental Effect" it says "(must be Physical spell with Physical damage)" -- in the sidebar that explains Sound spells, it says that Sound damage is Stun only, which would prevent you from ever making a Sound spell.

I was making a joke, since it's a pretty big contradiction.

[Sephiroth]

I think it's more likely your player got so used to magic in D&D he's trying to incorporate it's mechanical disconnect into the Shadowrun setting.

Not in the slightest.

[Ol' Scratch]

Sound has the problem of being Sound. ie, it's not at all quiet. At all. Meaning any kind of security is going to know he's doing something and will have little difficulty finding him. I mean, it should be worse than even Blast, and Blast represents tornado-like winds and shockwaves.

[Mr Clock]

Yeah...re: that bit in Street Magic, that's just weak editing/ proofreading. Smoke also only does Stun, yet is listed as an Elemental Effect. Somebody messed up. Anyway.

Ditto on the Sound being Sound. That's some noticeable spellcasting right there. How to treat the detection? Purely Force-based, or dependant on Spellcasting test successes? Threshold or bonus to perceiving?

[CanRay]

The flipside of Sound is that Sound Dampeners are pretty cheap, and would be standard issue on a lot of things, especially for Shadowrunners and Corporate Security, who would be using firearms inside buildings often. LOUD!!! I consider them a "Must Buy" for either the cybernetics, or incorporated into a helmet.

But, against passive targets (Read: Civilians), it's a great spell to use to incapacitate a large group without causing any serious damage. I mean, hell, Trog Rock Concerts are louder!

[stu_pie]

Found that an Adept running round with sound as part of elemental strike was pretty powered, the ignore armour I guess is used to balance fact it cant be used during stealth. Electric attacks seem just as strong IMO, half impact armour and can stun people, which is pretty powerful and more handy when running in the shadows

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, the Sound/'look I still do Physical' cheat is very abusive. If you allow it.

[Bull]

In the Drain Modifiers table (Street Magic, p163) beside "Elemental Effect" it says "(must be Physical spell with Physical damage)" -- in the sidebar that explains Sound spells, it says that Sound damage is Stun only, which would prevent you from ever making a Sound spell.

I was making a joke, since it's a pretty big contradiction.

I think that it's simply poor wording, and that the second "Physical" likely shouldn't be capitalized.

My read would be this:

The first Physical means that it is a Physical, not a Mana spell. Simple enough.

The second gets into semantics a bit, and is also why I think it shouldn't be capitalized. I think it's saying that it has to create "actual" physical damage (which can still be damage in the Stun category), rather than simply having some other effect... An Elemental spell that did not damage and JUST did the electrical elements disorient effect, for example.

In the long run, I think folks are over thinking this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And, as is pointed out, it's not really any better than a stun spell. Higher drain, same overall effect, can't be used on an Astral only target... it's only real upside is the ability to indirectly get targets in the blast radius, since Elemental Spells are Indirect rather than Direct.

Plus, if you get known for using it, Silence makes a great counter. Just hope no one ever creates a Shadowrun version of Vibranium, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[CanRay]

Plus, if you get known for using it, Silence makes a great counter. Just hope no one ever creates a Shadowrun version of Vibranium, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

Actually, I have a PC who has a party of NPCs working on that as one of their projects...

They have a lot on their plate, however. Interesting group. You meet one in the ShadowSkool stories. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kronk2]

"Sound" reveals its full potential when used underwater. Unfortunately you'll have to make up your own rules as it's not considered in the rulebook.

Treat as the blast element. Sound is the repeated compression and rarefaction of a wave form. Blast is a single compression and rarefaction. mechanistically this is as close as you are going to get.

[Dakka Dakka]

In the Drain Modifiers table (Street Magic, p163) beside "Elemental Effect" it says "(must be Physical spell with Physical damage)" -- in the sidebar that explains Sound spells, it says that Sound damage is Stun only, which would prevent you from ever making a Sound spell.

I was making a joke, since it's a pretty big contradiction.

Joke aside it is indeed a contradiction. By RAW this is taken even further with the lightning bolt/ball spells. Those indeed do P damage even though the elemental effects description says S. You could do this with Sound as well.

[Mr Clock]

Pretty sure on consideration that it's intended to imply that a damaging manipulation has to generate a measurable physical effect of some kind. May be drifting from RAW, but it sticks with what I see as RAI.

[Yerameyahu]

The Lightning Bolt doing P is a pretty notable error, though.

[Game2BHappy]

I used it in one game for the NPCs. I made it ridiculously loud so its use was as good as setting off an alarm. The PCs had to finish up and exit quick to avoid more security forces.

[Dakka Dakka]

The Lightning Bolt doing P is a pretty notable error, though.

What makes you think that? The wording in Street magic could just as well be erroneous.

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I mean. If you're making the assumption that the elemental effects work as written, then there's a bald conflict there. Something has to give.