Preventing cancer, ...by porting D&D to Shadowrun rules |
Preventing cancer, ...by porting D&D to Shadowrun rules |
Mar 9 2011, 09:27 AM
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#1
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,654 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 |
I have a number of friends who like RPGs. Specifically, they like 4th edition D&D. Getting them to play anything else is like pulling teeth. So, as a way of easing them out of their comfort zone, I hit upon the idea of using Shadowrun rules in a D&D setting.
Issues I've thought of:
What else do I need to consider? |
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Mar 9 2011, 09:55 AM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
This is something I have tried doing in the past, but never got past the conceptual stage.
The problem is, while you can cut magic out of the setting without much issue for a sci-fi game, the reverse is not true (with the sole exception of making everyone awakened). If you plan on doing this, you basically need to rip out everything except the basic core mechanics & rewrite the game. It's actually probably easier to just create a new system. Also keep in mind that D&D was designed as a heroic game; d20 systems are actually very good for heroic games (this is why the system I am developing uses a modified d20 base). The Shadowrun system does not work for this. |
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Mar 9 2011, 10:47 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 26-August 09 Member No.: 17,557 |
I've never played it but you could also look at Earthdawn for rules. Or leave all the cyber future stuff in but make it advanced magic. Cyber becomes magically imbued materials that allow mundane users to bypass their natural limits but the resonance/energy/astral imprint/etc of it conflicts with an individuals natural magic and rots their brain/soul/etc. The matrix is just the universal consciousness of Psyons. Hackers become those who lack natural physonic ability but use external magic to force their way in where Technos = Psyons. Even allot of the fluff can carry over to since the corps are Feudal Kingdoms in allot of ways.
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Mar 9 2011, 12:36 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589 |
I have a number of friends who like RPGs. Specifically, they like 4th edition D&D. Getting them to play anything else is like pulling teeth. They don't like RPGs. They like tactical, miniatures board games. This is a far greater hurdle than any rule adjustment. Shadowrun doesn't have the innate mechanical disconnect of 4th ed and is far more open ended in it's playable actions than 4th ed. If these cats can actually role play, get into the setting and ignore their character stats for a scene or two, then any rule changes will be irrelevant. They'll figure it out sooner or later and will enjoy being immersed in the world you create in the meantime as a nice dichotomy to their usual fair. But if they just keep looking down at their sheet, wondering when they get to use their "Additional Notes" power, then I might recommend Warhammer 40k. If you can figure out how to do this, please let us know. The d20 cancer plague must be stopped. Except OSR. That's okay. |
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Mar 9 2011, 12:44 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 2-September 08 Member No.: 16,303 |
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Mar 9 2011, 01:44 PM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
Increasing the damage to STR+X will make melee even more an all or nothing thing. Higher damage does not make the attack less avoidable in a system where melee attacks are much easier to avoid than ranged ones. What else do I need to consider? Make Orks green. |
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Mar 9 2011, 01:54 PM
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#7
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
D&D has a setting?
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Mar 9 2011, 01:56 PM
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#8
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
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Mar 9 2011, 02:06 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 3-June 08 From: San Jose, California Member No.: 16,029 |
If you really want to sink home the switch from ranged to melee combat, why not just reverse the rules? Make it easier to defend against ranged attacks. As for cyberwear, I recall there being warforged in D&D. Plenty of constructs and the like, you could easily say that the implants (Made by tinker gnomes?) make you more and more like a construct, to the point that you eventually lose your sanity and become a mindless automaton. (Inforced by the current essence rules)
Side note: Make sure to enforce the "Friends in melee" penalty. QUOTE Make Orks green.
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Mar 9 2011, 02:09 PM
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#10
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
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Mar 9 2011, 02:10 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 20-February 11 From: Kent Uk Member No.: 22,349 |
You'd need some basic new skills (ride, some kind of smith skill, just one off top of my head tho they shouldnt be to hard to create with tweaking) also 4th ed DnD (which IMO is awful) everyone has "powers" (which they can use daily,weekly,every turn?) you going to try to include this into your system? Alsooo like someone aboved mentioned 4th is basically a tatical board game, so if your players like that kind of thing Id suggest working out maps and scales (1sq=5ft)
Also if your players anything like my DnD group rules for burning down everything need to be made. |
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Mar 9 2011, 02:11 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 3-June 08 From: San Jose, California Member No.: 16,029 |
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Mar 9 2011, 02:12 PM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
You're also forgetting magic items. A fighter wearing magic boots of speed is almost like having skimmer discs.
Or boots that let him fly. Or a cape that turns him invisible, allows him to teleport, gives him 360 degree vision. Or a circlet that lets him send out psychic blasts at his foes, gives him telepathy, lets him know everything (all knowledge skills). |
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Mar 9 2011, 02:14 PM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
I'd suggest 1 square/hex=1m. Less conversion that way.
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Mar 9 2011, 02:16 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
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Mar 9 2011, 02:18 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 3-June 08 From: San Jose, California Member No.: 16,029 |
You're also forgetting magic items. A fighter wearing magic boots of speed is almost like having skimmer discs. Or boots that let him fly. Or a cape that turns him invisible, allows him to teleport, gives him 360 degree vision. Or a circlet that lets him send out psychic blasts at his foes, gives him telepathy, lets him know everything (all knowledge skills). A lot of that can be covered by non-implant gear. Boots of speed would be rollerblades. That cape that turns you invisible? Chameleon suit (or ruthy poloymer). A circlet that lets you send out psychic blasts? Posession spirit of man, with a task to cast whatever your equivilant of psychic blast is, when the wearer says the command word. For boots of flying... Why not just mod the functionality of the Lockheed Sparrow? |
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Mar 9 2011, 02:38 PM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
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Mar 9 2011, 02:59 PM
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#18
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Douche Group: Banned Posts: 1,584 Joined: 2-March 11 Member No.: 23,135 |
There's no inherent issue with expanding all the melee skills to be individual weapon skills, since you're going to be ditching all of the gun skills. I'd recommend (with some specializations):
Light Blades (Daggers, Short Swords) Heavy Blades (Longswords, two-handers) Blunt (Clubs, Maces, Flails) Polearms (Staves, Halberds) Axes (One-handed, Two-handed) Throwing Weapons (Daggers, Throwing axes, Shuriken) Bows (Shortbows, Longbows, Composite Short/Longbows) Crossbows (Light crossbows, Heavy crossbows, Hand crossbows) Artillery (Catapults, Trebuchet) Unarmed Exotic Ranged/Melee (Whips, Ballistae, whatever specific oddities you have in the setting) This compares to Shadowrun's Archery, Automatics, Blades, Clubs, Exotic Ranged/Melee, Heavy Weapons, Longarms, Pistols, Throwing Weapons, Unarmed, and Gunnery. This would mean that, like in SR, you'd have to expend a huge number of skill points to be a master of all weapons. Then what you need to do is figure out what skills to keep or toss. That should be pretty easy. Most skills have a direct translation, once you ditch the tech skills. Magic is the tricky part, though. For the most part, magic needs to function as written, but I'd recommend doing some extra work to separate the spells out into Wizard/Cleric/Druid lists (have Wizard, Cleric, and Druid as Positive Qualities) and add in some extra D&D type spells (most things are already in SR, like Magic Missile can be accomplished through one of the Bolt spells). Separate out Wizard/Cleric/Druid summoning and banishing from each other, so that each gets some summoning and/or banishing action. Phys Ads are basically monks anyway. That needs work. Then all you have to do is turn Cyberware into Magic Items and have people bind them with Essence like normal and you're golden. I'd also let non-magic people use Weapon foci, and add in Armor foci using the same basic rules -- they cost Karma to bind, but no Essence cost. That would let you get your +1 sword or shield or whatnot. Oh, and weapon and armor lists. These should be creative, and I'd add in bonuses and penalties for using various individual weapons to keep them all from being stale STR/2 + 1 or 2 or 3 clones of each other. Start a group out at "low level" with no magic items and relatively few build points. Maybe give them 300 build points, cap starting attribute points at 200, and then come up with some hideous (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to gold translation so that people can only afford starting equipment. Like 20 gold per build point, with a max of 50 BP spent on gold. That'd cap you out at 1000 GP. More than enough cash to buy some starting gear. |
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Mar 9 2011, 03:36 PM
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#19
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
A lot of that can be covered by non-implant gear. Boots of speed would be rollerblades. That cape that turns you invisible? Chameleon suit (or ruthy poloymer). A circlet that lets you send out psychic blasts? Posession spirit of man, with a task to cast whatever your equivilant of psychic blast is, when the wearer says the command word. For boots of flying... Why not just mod the functionality of the Lockheed Sparrow? My point is: D&D has magic items that mundanes can use. |
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Mar 9 2011, 04:36 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 206 Joined: 9-September 10 From: Minneapolis, MN Member No.: 19,032 |
My point is: D&D has magic items that mundanes can use. Not to mention that it has magic items that spellcasters can use without penalty. Converting magic-items into a 'cyberware-like' solution might get interesting. You might want to simply detach the essence/magic link if you're trying for a D&D-like setting. Leave it as a simple limitation on how many magical items you can have bonded to you at a given time. On a different topic, this whole enterprise might be a lot of work for little-to-no benefit. If your gaming group is hardcore D&D-ers, they'll want to argue endlessly about any issues in your new set of rules. If the end-results of an action or a particular type of character aren't EXACTLY what they were expecting in the D&D world, they'll assume you're trying to screw them. |
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Mar 9 2011, 04:39 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Ugh it is so much easier to use the SR setting with D&D rules. Push comes to shove Gamma world covers pretty much all your bases. If you really want to get frisky you can do a full convert. The SR4A rules are pretty much crap.
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Mar 9 2011, 04:49 PM
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#22
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Douche Group: Banned Posts: 1,584 Joined: 2-March 11 Member No.: 23,135 |
Not to mention that it has magic items that spellcasters can use without penalty. Converting magic-items into a 'cyberware-like' solution might get interesting. You might want to simply detach the essence/magic link if you're trying for a D&D-like setting. Leave it as a simple limitation on how many magical items you can have bonded to you at a given time. Could go either way. On one hand, letting people have the old "one magic item per slot" rule could work nicely. On the other hand, letting a mage make use of a Wired Reflexes 3 equivalent item with no penalty might just be ridiculous. Mages can probably get by using the right kinds of foci. A nonmage might need a Cloak of Invisibility, but a mage could just put an Invisibility spell into a sustaining focus. Point being that a mage with access to foci and no-penalty magic items might just be a wee bit too powerful. QUOTE On a different topic, this whole enterprise might be a lot of work for little-to-no benefit. If your gaming group is hardcore D&D-ers, they'll want to argue endlessly about any issues in your new set of rules. If the end-results of an action or a particular type of character aren't EXACTLY what they were expecting in the D&D world, they'll assume you're trying to screw them. If your players actually assume that you're in it to try and screw them, you need better players. |
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Mar 9 2011, 05:10 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 206 Joined: 9-September 10 From: Minneapolis, MN Member No.: 19,032 |
Could go either way. On one hand, letting people have the old "one magic item per slot" rule could work nicely. On the other hand, letting a mage make use of a Wired Reflexes 3 equivalent item with no penalty might just be ridiculous. I'm assuming that the OP would be converting the usual D&D magical items into shadowrun rules, and not converting shadowrun cyberware into magical items. I think you can get the "Haste" spell enchanted on armor, but even that only grants one extra attack when doing a full-round attack. Aside from that, there's plenty of simple stat-boosting items, which should translate pretty nicely. A slot-based system would work even better, although that loses the cyberpunk vibe of essence-loss. Now that I think about it, D&D setting shouldn't really have cyberpunk elements to it anyway. If your players actually assume that you're in it to try and screw them, you need better players. Very true. If the OP's players are focused on the rules, he's going to have to deal with plenty of "I think it should work THIS way..." if he's going to try thing. One big question: Are you going to stick with SR's spell-list? Or are you going to try and convert-over the mammoth list of D&D spells? Frankly, the spell-list is one of the funner bits of D&D. Wizards get REALLY powerful at high levels simply because they get access to EXTREMELY powerful spells. Dimensional Door, Wish, Black Tentacles, etc. To say nothing of Magic Missile. You can't have D&D without MM! |
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Mar 9 2011, 05:46 PM
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#24
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Douche Group: Banned Posts: 1,584 Joined: 2-March 11 Member No.: 23,135 |
I'm assuming that the OP would be converting the usual D&D magical items into shadowrun rules, and not converting shadowrun cyberware into magical items. I think you can get the "Haste" spell enchanted on armor, but even that only grants one extra attack when doing a full-round attack. Aside from that, there's plenty of simple stat-boosting items, which should translate pretty nicely. A slot-based system would work even better, although that loses the cyberpunk vibe of essence-loss. Now that I think about it, D&D setting shouldn't really have cyberpunk elements to it anyway. My idea was only to use Essence as some sort of arbitrary cap on the power of magic items you can be using at any one time, and to limit mages from being ridiculous (by reducing their available Magic if they use magic items). Unless you write in a bunch of extra restrictions on mages, there's nothing stopping them from becoming combat gods with super magic items to boost their physical abilities, powerful foci, high combat skills, and crazy magic armor. Otherwise there's no reason not to be a mage, even if you only buy a very low Magic attribute to start. QUOTE One big question: Are you going to stick with SR's spell-list? Or are you going to try and convert-over the mammoth list of D&D spells? Frankly, the spell-list is one of the funner bits of D&D. Wizards get REALLY powerful at high levels simply because they get access to EXTREMELY powerful spells. Dimensional Door, Wish, Black Tentacles, etc. To say nothing of Magic Missile. You can't have D&D without MM! The trick with Shadowrun is that spells become more effective the stronger your Magic is, as opposed to spell strength being based on what level spell they are. So in Shadowrun you basically have "direct damage mana spell" and "direct damage physical spell" and "indirect damage mana spell" and so on and so forth ("indirect damage elemental fire area spell"), and these get to be really powerful as you get higher Magic (and thus can cast with higher Force). For example, Manabolt = Magic Missile. Since you can multicast it if you have high enough Magic to make it effective, you could consider that the extra missiles based on your level. A mage with Magic 9 (3 Initiation grades) could drop a Force 9 fireball and pretty well roast anyone in a 9 meter radius. I think that might qualify as the equivalent of a Meteor Storm or whatnot. Certainly though, there are spells that don't have analogues. Mostly noncombat ones. I guess you'd just have to make them up at that point. Also teleportation spells, since those are pretty common in D&D, but forbidden in SR. |
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Mar 9 2011, 07:29 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589 |
I have a number of friends who like RPGs. Specifically, they like 4th edition D&D. Getting them to play anything else is like pulling teeth. So, as a way of easing them out of their comfort zone, I hit upon the idea of using Shadowrun rules in a D&D setting. Using any of the bunch of established game systems instead of heavily homebrewing, with the quality of results not guaranteed? Say, you could use any of the previous DnD editions, Pathfinder, whatever, even RIFTS or GURPS.What else do I need to consider? That said, I for one wouldn't call 4e-only players "RPG lovers", but please let's all not go that way. Several actually. You unforgivably forgot the best ones: Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer.Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, Dragonlance/Krynn just spring to my mind. I know there are others. My point is: D&D has magic items that mundanes can use. Uh, Digital Grimoire has an example of those in Shadowrun, too, if I recall. |
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