Mindbreaking sprint checks, another time when you just can't think too hard about SR4 Options

[noonesshowmonkey]

So, unless I am doing something wildly incorrect, a Simple Action sprint check, taken twice, can let an athletic - not even necessarily augmented - character approach 35 mph+ without too much trouble.

So what have you all done about this absurdity? Ignored it? Allowed only one meat-body movement per turn?

[DamienKnight]

25 Meters per turn

Olympic Athlete:

6 agility 6 athletics +2 specialization in running

14 dice average 1/3 sucesses: 4.5 = 9 meters per turn

Two simple actions = 18 meters per turn total bonus

43 meters per turn = 14.33 meters per second

14.33 meters per second = 32 mph

Fasted human in the 5th world: ~26mph

Yep, this is a hinky running system. it allows an non-modified person with max natural attribute/skill to average a speed higher than the fastest human alive today.

If you reduced this to 1 meter per turn per success bonus, then you get about 25 mph for an olympic athelete, with up to upper 30s mph with drastic successes (ie Karma).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And? It is ignored. Does it really matter?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Just consider a combat turn during 4 seconds (one for each possible IP) instead of 3. This alone removes the weirdness of sprinting.

[Summerstorm]

Eh, also i am not convinced that is how they ment it. But yeah... that's like it is written.

In my game you can sprint, make ONE test and add the speed, and you have to "keep it up" by always spending a simple action in each IP, no added bonus. Also i am thinking about forcing a sprint for the whole CT. You know... no one can just stop running just like that (except for running into a wall i guess).

[Epicedion]

Really the problem is that the Movement Rates are already too damn high. Walking is about 7.5mph, and Running is about 18.5 mph. For most people that would make Walking in Shadowrun a pretty quick jog, and Running a flat-out sprint.

It would be more realistic if you more or less halved the movement rates: 5 and 15. Anything over that would require a Running test (keep that 2m per hit). That's about 4 and 11 mph. Remember that at Walking speed you're taking no penalties to your actions.

That way an average well-practiced runner (let's say STR 3 and Running 3, or ~2 successes) would be able to pull about 14mph with one Sprint action, and 17mph with two.

At STR 6 and Running 6 (world class), you're looking at ~4 successes, or 17mph with one Sprint action, and 23mph with two.

So a world class sprinter who is the peak of human running perfection could conceivably hit or beat the 26mph mark.

[Mr Clock]

For the regular walking/running, I think fast hustle to short sprint. The movement rates given are the top end, as nothing stops you from going slower.

The thing that bugs me is the movement rate being spread over an entire Combat Turn. Aside from Nameless in 2nd Ed (opening story, considering going through a crowd at 80 kph or thereabouts) I just like the idea of a boosted sam' tearing it up. For the rest, I'm willing to consider it an abstraction.

[Critias]

I'm more concerned with playability than realism, in cases like this. Personally I'd much rather see players able to move their characters too far than not far enough (take a look at the wacky movement rates in Dark Heresy, for example, if you want to advance while firing, shoot then fall back, etc, etc, you slow to a crawl!). It's more fun for a game to err on the side of moving too fast, I believe, especially when dealing with the "better than human" undercurrent of many Shadowrun characters. It feels pretty awesome when a superhumanly athletic Street Samurai or Adept is able to scramble around and evade the bad guys, IMHO.

It would be simple enough to make that tiny tweak to a combat turn's length (as mentioned above, bumping it to a 4 or 5 second combat round), if it's really an issue that breaks the game for you.

[Slyck]

Two simple actions = 18 meters per turn total bonus

Hmmm, I never read it that the bonuses from subsequent checks would stack, but rather overlap. I figured the only point of spending another action that turn to check again would be to make up for a poor original roll.

[capt.pantsless]

So what have you all done about this absurdity? Ignored it? Allowed only one meat-body movement per turn?

Ignored it. Sometimes in games, realism takes a backseat to ease-of-use and overall fun. As I've said before: This isn't real life. It's Shadowrun, it's supposed to be BTL.


If a player of mine ever did more than one sprint-check in a combat turn, I'd do some basic realism adjustments to the rules. I.e. you need to make endurance checks of some sort to keep running that fast.

[James McMurray]

Hmmm, I never read it that the bonuses from subsequent checks would stack, but rather overlap. I figured the only point of spending another action that turn to check again would be to make up for a poor original roll.

Same here. It looks like the intent of the rule is to replace a Run free action with a Sprint simple action, roll the dice, and move faster than your standard running rate.

[Epicedion]

I'm more concerned with playability than realism, in cases like this. Personally I'd much rather see players able to move their characters too far than not far enough (take a look at the wacky movement rates in Dark Heresy, for example, if you want to advance while firing, shoot then fall back, etc, etc, you slow to a crawl!). It's more fun for a game to err on the side of moving too fast, I believe, especially when dealing with the "better than human" undercurrent of many Shadowrun characters. It feels pretty awesome when a superhumanly athletic Street Samurai or Adept is able to scramble around and evade the bad guys, IMHO.

It would be simple enough to make that tiny tweak to a combat turn's length (as mentioned above, bumping it to a 4 or 5 second combat round), if it's really an issue that breaks the game for you.

If you tweak the combat turn length, you start to run into the problem of two actions taking too long to be realistic.

Ten meters is a long way to walk for one combat turn, with no penalty. If you're in an indoor environment, 10 meters could easily be room to room to room. At my apartment it's about 10 meters from the front door to the bedroom, almost a straight shot, and it takes me 6 seconds to walk it without slamming into a piece of furniture. If I had to actually take corners, it'd take me a little longer.

Not that I'd complain too much about the realism. It's more that the high Walking speed means that people hardly ever seem to run unless they're in big open spaces. Indoors, 10 meters will get you to just about anywhere you want to be.

[Epicedion]

I just checked back in the SR3 book since I was curious. Walking speed was Quickness in meters per combat turn, and running speed was 3 times that for humans. It's odd that the SR4 designers would amp up movement so much.

[Muspellsheimr]

Shadowrun <> Real World

Walking Rate
3.33 m/s <> 1.51 m/s

Running Rate (Guerrouj 1500m)
8.33 m/s < > 7.28 m/s

Sprinting Rate (Dice Pool 6 / Bolt 100m)
9.66 m/s < > 10.44 m/s [Single Sprint Action, Average Hits]
11.00 m/s < > 10.44 m/s [Two Sprint Actions, Average Hits]
19.00 m/s < > 10.44 m/s [Eight Sprint Actions, Average Hits]

Sprinting Rate (Dice Pool 12 / Bolt 100m)
11.00 m/s < > 10.44 m/s [Single Sprint Action, Average Hits]
13.66 m/s < > 10.44 m/s [Two Sprint Actions, Average Hits]
29.66 m/s < > 10.44 m/s [Eight Sprint Actions, Average Hits]

Sprinting Rate (Dice Pool 20 / Bolt 100m)
11.66 m/s < > 10.44 m/s [Single Sprint Action, Average Hits]
15.00 m/s < > 10.44 m/s [Two Sprint Actions, Average Hits]
35.00 m/s < > 10.44 m/s [Eight Sprint Actions, Average Hits]


For those curious: 35.00 m/s is 126km (or 78.29 miles) per hour.

Keep in mind that 25m / 3 seconds is the Shadowrun running rate of an Infirm, Incompetent (Running), Strength 1 character with no augmentation, magic, or other enhancements.

[Epicedion]

Keep in mind that 25m / 3 seconds is the Shadowrun running rate of an Infirm, Incompetent (Running), Strength 1 character with no augmentation, magic, or other enhancements.

Pretty much this. My beef is that characters rarely need to run (and thus take movement penalties) on a regular basis because in realistic environments 10m is a pretty long way.

[Yerameyahu]

That's the real point for me: movement rates never matter at all, especially outside of vehicles. It's a good thing, because you don't have to worry about these bent rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

They matter for melee.

Being able to close distance across a block in 3 seconds is the only thing keeping melee in the game.

[Yerameyahu]

I disagree. Melee *isn't* still in the game (har har), and you're supposed to sneak up on them anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

They matter for melee.

Being able to close distance across a block in 3 seconds is the only thing keeping melee in the game.

Having the Troll sprint across a third of a football field and slice you in half with a combat axe in the time it takes you to shoot two bullets is a little ridiculous, though. Especially if he gets Initiative on you and you just sit there and go durrr the whole time.

My ideal basic movement rates would be something more like: 5/15 for Humans (etc), 4/12 for Dwarfs, and 8/24 for Trolls.

[Yerameyahu]

My point was just that's it's not a miniatures game and (in my personal experience) distances are only used to ballpark firearm ranges and *once* for a vehicle situation. If we played it as a minis/map game, I'd be more worried about the 'runner troll' and the other obviously broken movement rules.

[Ascalaphus]

I can see that it's unrealistic. But it's the same rule for PCs and NPCs, so it's not unfair, really.

And how often should sprinting come up? Entering melee combat with someone shooting at you from a housing block distance is absurd.

Melee isn't for long-range engagements. It's for running around inside buildings, which tend to have limited-size rooms that you can easily cover in 1-2 rounds. It's for when you bump into enemies.

[Medicineman]

So, unless I am doing something wildly incorrect, a Simple Action sprint check, taken twice, can let an athletic - not even necessarily augmented - character approach 35 mph+ without too much trouble.

So what have you all done about this absurdity? Ignored it? Allowed only one meat-body movement per turn?

You can only Sprint once per Round.
because as soon as you change from running to sprinting you can't change it a second Time (only Improve it with a second Check,If the Result is better you take that better result)

He who dances only once per Post
Medicineman

[Epicedion]

You can only Sprint once per Round.
because as soon as you change from running to sprinting you can't change it a second Time (only Improve it with a second Check,If the Result is better you take that better result)

He who dances only once per Post
Medicineman

Movement rates are still too fast.

[Medicineman]

Well 25 meters / rd and 3 expected successes (Pool 8-10 Dice ) thats about 32 Meters/Second
Very Good but not yet World Record
even 4 Successes(Pool 12 ) is still in teh "Ok Range"

And yes ; walking range is too fast

with a very good Dance
Medicienamn

[Critias]

Movement rates are still too fast.

No one from CGL is going to come to your house and assault you if you lower 'em for your game. Honest.