Levitate spell, how does it work? Options

[mielikki]

My search-fu has failed me, so I am posting this as a new thread. If it's already been discussed somewhere else, please point me there.

The question of the levitate spell was opened at our gaming table this week, and we're not sure how exactly it works. The description reads as follows:

Levitate (Physical)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1

Levitate allows the caster to telekinetically lift a person or object and move it around. The caster must achieve a threshold on the Spellcasting Test equal to 1 per 200 kg of the subject’s mass. The subject of the spell can be moved anywhere in the caster’s line of sight at a Movement rate equal to the spell’s Force x net Spellcasting hits in meters per turn.

Objects flung into other things should be handled as a Ranged Attack Test (see Fling), inflicting a number of boxes of Stun damage as decided by the gamemaster (especially sharp or dangerous objects may do Physical damage at the gamemaster’s discretion).

If the caster is attempting to levitate an item held by a living being, make an Opposed Test between the spell’s Force x 2 and the holder’s Strength + Body. The caster must have at least 1 net hit to levitate the item away. If the caster is attempting to levitate an unwilling living being, the Opposed Test uses the target’s Strength + Body. You can use this spell to levitate yourself, if desired.

It's pretty clear on willing living subjects - to levitate a 60 kilo elf, you'll need 2 hits - 1 as a treshold for the spell, another one to have a net hit to have some movement rate, easy to achieve in most situations.
But what about non-willing living subjects? Can Counterspelling apply too?

Then the unattended non-living subjects. Does the object resistance table apply, or is it simply the treshold depending on weight, so to lift a 1,000 kg vehicle you'll need 6 hits on the spellcasting test (5 hits for threshold of 1,000/200, 1 for movement rate)
Items held by living beings - how many hits is "one net hit"? Does the threshold apply? In a model case, where the target (Str3, Bod3) is holding a 20kg suitcase, and scores 2 hits on the test, how many hits does the mage need to lift the object? 3, to have one net hit over the target? Or 4, because you have the treshold of 1 for the suitcase weight?

And I am not even getting into the fact whether the treshold is 1 for 200kg as in 1-200, or as in over 200.

Also, what happens when you get no net Spellcasting hits, but get enough hits to make the treshold, so the spell works. Does the object have no weight and can be pushed around? Or does it do nothing then?

mielikki

[Fringe]

"Note that thresholds are never applied to Opposed Tests." (SR4A, p. 63) So if the target is unwilling or held by an unwilling being, it's just the Opposed Test, and no threshold is used. Counterspelling works as it does against other spells.

Otherwise, the specific threshold listed in the spell overrides the generic threshold, so it's just 1 per 200 kg.

In either case, "The Spellcasting + Magic test must generate at least one net hit to succeed." and "Failed spells have no effect." (both SR4A, p. 183) So the spell does nothing if you don't get any net hits, even if you got hits on the casting test before the threshold or opposed test was applied.

[mielikki]

"Note that thresholds are never applied to Opposed Tests." (SR4A, p. 63) So if the target is unwilling or held by an unwilling being, it's just the Opposed Test, and no threshold is used.

So, does that mean that if a fella holds on to that 3 ton vehicle, all the mage has to beat is the guy's strenght+body check?

The rest makes sense, thanks for pointing me to the rules.

Though, that brings another interesting point. The RAW states on page 62 of SR4/A the following:

If no threshold is listed, then the threshold for the test is 1. So only 1 hit is necessary to succeed in an Infiltration + Agility Test.

which means that you do succeed if you get as many hits as the threshold. So if the same applies to the spell, the spell does work if you have the hits equal to the treshold.

[Fringe]

So, does that mean that if a fella holds on to that 3 ton vehicle, all the mage has to beat is the guy's strenght+body check?

The rest makes sense, thanks for pointing me to the rules.

Though, that brings another interesting point. The RAW states on page 62 of SR4/A the following:

If no threshold is listed, then the threshold for the test is 1. So only 1 hit is necessary to succeed in an Infiltration + Agility Test.

which means that you do succeed if you get as many hits as the threshold. So if the same applies to the spell, the spell does work if you have the hits equal to the treshold.

That first point is where a GM call really needs to be made. What does it mean to "hold" something? Can a person really "hold" a 3-ton vehicle in a way that really makes it harder or easier to move? I'd make the call that the person has to be able to carry the item in question (and must actually be carrying it, instead of just touching it) in order to make it "held". But yes, if your GM makes the call that you've stated, he's just made the "resistor" a force multiplier instead.

I saw the same thing about the unlisted threshold, and the general rules are that just need to meet the threshold (zero net hits) to succeed (SR4A, p. 63, first paragraph under "Thresholds"). But spellcasting specifically requires a net hit to succeed; this is a more specific rule that overrides the general rule.

[Adarael]

Logically, anything that you are incapable of lifting via your actual roll, you cannot wrest from someone's hands without also dropping it. For instance, if you roll 4 successes on a roll to tear that 1000-kg weight out of the Cyberzombie's grasp, and the cyberzombie totally fails to hold onto it, congratulations. You've levitated it! However, now that it's flying and under your control, you haven't achieved enough hits to lift it. It falls on the Cyberzombie's foot. Hurrah!

The key fact here is that it says in the opposed test you can "levitate it away". Not "keep levitating it."

In the case of a dude holding a dump truck, you might be able to scoot it out of his grasp. It will remain firmly on the ground, though.

[Fringe]

I like that interpretation, Adarael. I'm not sure what others might say about it, but I think it's reasonable to track the spellcasting hits on the single casting test against both the threshold and the opposing test for just such a situation.

I wouldn't like the idea, though, if it required rerolling the casting test (with opposing test, as needed) each time. It introduces too much metagaming, I think. ("Grab it again, let's see if we can get the mage to fail/glitch the spell this time!")

[TheOOB]

It may be that Levitate doesn`t exert any force at all, just moves things, Magic Hands is there to do the truck example.

[whatevs]

It may be that Levitate doesn`t exert any force at all, just moves things, Magic Hands is there to do the truck example.

Sorry to bump this, but it seems that there's volumes left unsaid here.

Wouldn't lifting a tonne of anything require force? It would seem reasonable that the force required to lift a car could move a rock around with some authoritah.

And couldn't (or better yet , shouldn't) levitate be used to rip a vault door off it's hinges troll-styles?

[Yerameyahu]

Magic doesn't necessarily work that way, so you simply might not be able to target the door separately.

[KarmaInferno]

Magic doesn't target the meatworld directly in Shadowrun. It targets auras.

For a truck, you can't target individual parts of the truck, because the truck has just one aura. As far as a spell is concerned, there are no truck "doors" or "windshields" or "tires". There's just "truck".

No, it doesn't entirely make sense, but that's Shadowrun for ya.





-k

[Yerameyahu]

Now, you can obviously say, 'what if I connect something to the door and Levitate that?' The answer is no… maybe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) We don't know, because they didn't bother to have the rules make sense. Just do what seems reasonable and enhances the story, and don't try to be a sneaky munchkin about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[whatevs]

Now, you can obviously say, 'what if I connect something to the door and Levitate that?' The answer is no… maybe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) We don't know, because they didn't bother to have the rules make sense. Just do what seems reasonable and enhances the story, and don't try to be a sneaky munchkin about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The targetting point seems a little fluffy to me, but i can dig it. I'll just have to think more 'jedi' and less 'magneto'. God i'm such a nerd...

There's also more than one way to skin that cat (vault). Shape material (steel) and some edge could do it. Also, maybe some c4 or maybe a high-ish level spirit.

[RedeemerofOgar]

Now, you can obviously say, 'what if I connect something to the door and Levitate that?' The answer is no… maybe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) We don't know, because they didn't bother to have the rules make sense. Just do what seems reasonable and enhances the story, and don't try to be a sneaky munchkin about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I would think that Doors would have their own aura, as invested by the people using them. Windows wouldn't, and mirrors wouldn't, and tires probably wouldn't, but I could definitely see doors being their own entity.

[Yerameyahu]

Huh? For one thing, it's a vault door, and… huh? People use all those things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If you're going to invent a totally arbitrary system (and you should, because it's magic), it should at least make sense. Hehe.

[Tyro]

Logically, anything that you are incapable of lifting via your actual roll, you cannot wrest from someone's hands without also dropping it. For instance, if you roll 4 successes on a roll to tear that 1000-kg weight out of the Cyberzombie's grasp, and the cyberzombie totally fails to hold onto it, congratulations. You've levitated it! However, now that it's flying and under your control, you haven't achieved enough hits to lift it. It falls on the Cyberzombie's foot. Hurrah!

The key fact here is that it says in the opposed test you can "levitate it away". Not "keep levitating it."

In the case of a dude holding a dump truck, you might be able to scoot it out of his grasp. It will remain firmly on the ground, though.

I also agree with this interpretation.