Questions after the first gaming session, What the hell was I doing? Options

[Troyminator]

Hi All,

I ran our first Shadowrun game last night and none of us are very familiar with the game mechanics. I had everything printed out that I needed and promptly left it at home. I did a lot of things on the fly and people seemed to have fun.

I have some questions, though. I hope that you all can help me with it.

We had a dwarf character sprinting to get/keep away from a pack of ghouls. Sprinting is a simple action that gives a -2 pool to other actions. We couldn't figure out if a character could shoot then sprint and not get the -2 penalty. After musch discussion, we decided that in 3 seconds, a character wouldn't be able to shoot and sprint 20 meters without taking the -2 pool penalty.

The same dwarf character was trying to sneak up on a Tanamous warehouse, his successes were equal to the ghouls perception roll and, IIRC, the rules state that a tie goes to the defender. Who would have been the defender: the dwarf sneaking up or the ghouls guarding the warehouse (actively using perception to make sure nothing happens to the warehouse)? We eventually decided to have a "do-over". The dwarf lost (which is why he was sprinting to keep away from the ghouls).

Said dwarf is also a hacker. He wanted to try and use the matrix to scan an abandoned building to see if there were any people in there using comlinks. Also he wanted to see if he could tell how many people were in the building by the number of active comlinks. Is this even possible?

Thanks in advance for your help

-edited for spelling mistakes-

[Ascalaphus]

Hi All,

I ran our frist Shadowrun game last night and none of us are very familiar with the game mechanics. I had everything printed out that I needed and promptly left it at home. I did a lot of things on the fly and people seemed to have fun.

I have some questions, though. I hope that you all can help me with it.

We had a dwarf character sprinting to get/keep away from a pack of ghouls. Sprinting is a simple action that gives a -2 pool to other actions. We couldn't figure out if a character could shoot then sprint and not get the -2 penalty. After much discussion, we decided that in 3 seconds, a character wouldn't be able to shoot and sprint 20 meters without taking the -2 pool penalty.

That seems fairly reasonable. Movement seems to happen more or less at the same time as other actions, so applying the penalty makes sense.

The same dwarf character was trying to sneak up on a Tanamous warehouse, his successes were equal to the ghouls perception roll and, IIRC, the rules state that a tie goes to the defender. Who would have been the defender: the dwarf sneaking up or the ghouls guarding the warehouse (actively using perception to make sure nothing happens to the warehouse)? We eventually decided to have a "do-over". The dwarf lost (which is why he was sprinting to keep away from the ghouls).

I think the watcher is the active one, since I seem to recall that even in unopposed perception checks, you need 1+ net hits to succeed, while unopposed sneaking checks are almost unheard of. So stealth is the "defense" against perception.

But it doesn't matter all that much; just pick either one and be consistent about it. Most characters hev to both sneak and perceive now and then, so it should balance out.

Said dwarf is also a hacker. He wanted to try and use the matrix to scan an abandoned building to see if there were any people in there using comlinks. Also he wanted to see if he could tell how many people were in the building by the number of active comlinks. Is this even possible?

That sounds quite doable. Page 230 in SR4A: Detect Hidden Node. (You don't need to make a test to find non-hidden Nodes.)

[Makki]

Said dwarf is also a hacker. He wanted to try and use the matrix to scan an abandoned building to see if there were any people in there using comlinks. Also he wanted to see if he could tell how many people were in the building by the number of active comlinks. Is this even possible?

he can only find nodes within his signal range, and theirs. but unless it was a really large building, that shouldn't be a problem. Keep in mind, he will find other nodes as well. Active and passive nodes, like coffee machines and printers, hidden nodes that are not commlinks, etc. Everything that is not wired. He' ll have to take some time and probably use his Browse software to filter out, what he's looking for.

[Manunancy]

As far as I remember the defender in the case you're mentioning is the sneaking character.

Abut the comlinks : well, all he will be able to tell will be the number of comlinks and a rough estimation of their position. Which gives somt hint about the peoples carrying them ,though it can result in a completely wrong impression if the correlation isn't good : say you have a dozen feral ghouls without comlink, this method won't spot them. Active nodes, drones and the like can screw the count in the other direction since they're emitting with the same wavelegth and communication protocols.

A modern day example would be to look for wifi signal sources : you're going to find not only the wifi-enabled computers, but also just about every wifi-enabled peripherals, and won't be able to tell which is which without a closer look (things like bandwith usage, identification protocols and the like)

[Epicedion]

We had a dwarf character sprinting to get/keep away from a pack of ghouls. Sprinting is a simple action that gives a -2 pool to other actions. We couldn't figure out if a character could shoot then sprint and not get the -2 penalty. After musch discussion, we decided that in 3 seconds, a character wouldn't be able to shoot and sprint 20 meters without taking the -2 pool penalty.

You declare your movement rate in the Declare Actions part of your action phase, which is before you make any rolls. Once you declare how you're moving, you're stuck that way for the rest of the turn, and thus take the -2 penalty for running on every action. If you get extra initiative passes, you can upgrade or downgrade your movement, which starts to get a little more complicated, since then you have to figure how much you actually move per initiative pass.

But yeah, when you run you take the penalty on all actions in the same action phase, even if you shoot "before" you start running.

The same dwarf character was trying to sneak up on a Tanamous warehouse, his successes were equal to the ghouls perception roll and, IIRC, the rules state that a tie goes to the defender. Who would have been the defender: the dwarf sneaking up or the ghouls guarding the warehouse (actively using perception to make sure nothing happens to the warehouse)? We eventually decided to have a "do-over". The dwarf lost (which is why he was sprinting to keep away from the ghouls).

Ties on opposed tests are just ties, unless you absolutely need a clean result. For the most part, on Stealth roll ties I like to grant partial success to both parties -- the dwarf would be quiet but the ghoul would get some inkling that something was amiss, and be on heightened alert. That might go toward future opposed Perception/Stealth rolls, or potentially negate surprise.

Said dwarf is also a hacker. He wanted to try and use the matrix to scan an abandoned building to see if there were any people in there using comlinks. Also he wanted to see if he could tell how many people were in the building by the number of active comlinks. Is this even possible?

The rules aren't entirely clear on how that works. I generally say that, since commlinks are omnidirectional broadcast points, that when you go searching for signals you can't narrow the parameters down to range and direction. You pick up every node within Signal range of your commlink (and within Signal range for the node).

Active nodes happily broadcast their locations and a list of their owners' greatest fears. Passive nodes are detectable, but don't give up any information -- they appear as Commlink Wireless Source A1z23bD64f, and you have to hack and track them to pull any info (since you're not going to be on their subscription list). Hidden nodes act like passive nodes, except you don't even see them unless you use Scan to find them.

[Critias]

For stealth/perception ties (in the case of someone actively trying to sneak closer), I'm a big fan of "Woah, that was close. He didn't spot you, but he almost did. You weren't able to get any closer this turn, just had to stay hunkered down behind this cover," or that sort of thing.

[Mr Clock]

Just an aside, but don't ghouls have astral perception and an improved sense of smell?

[UmaroVI]

As mentioned, Ghouls have Astral Perception and are blind. This means that they don't roll Perception to spot people, they roll Assensing to "see" things [they do still roll Perception for other senses like hearing].

RAW, you can either not hide at all from Astral Perception (meaning they make a success test that you can't oppose to see your aura), which is what SR4A says, or you can go with what the FAQ says which is that you can hide from Assensing if you are dual-natured (by using logic or agility plus infiltration) or on the astral (logic+infiltration) but still can't hide at all if you are mundane. A lot of people houserule this in various ways, but FYI.

Otherwise what people have already said is correct. You might want to think about how you want to run astral perception vs. mundane infiltration.

[Glyph]

Remember that perception is not limited to vision, and that ghouls have other senses (such as smell) that are heightened. I think stealth can work against astral perception, depending on what you are doing. It can't see through cover, and it can be hard to pick out one life form out of a jumble of others. On the other hand, complete darkness will do nothing at all to hide you.

[TheOOB]

I generally make ties of stealth rolls result in the defender seeing/hearing enough to make them take a look and investigate, but not enough to raise the alarm. If they don't find anything, they'll probably think it was nothing and go back to their patrol, but will be more alert.

Scan works great for finding commlinks, but remember if you can see them, they can see you, and unless you take the time to browse/analyze for each one you won't likely find out much that is useful. Also, any reasonably secure facility will use wi-fi inhibiting paint to reduce signal ranges.

[Muspellsheimr]

Ties on opposed tests are just ties, unless you absolutely need a clean result.

No.

Ties are not "just ties". In the event of a tie on an opposed test, the defender is considered to have won (exception: touch attacks, tie goes to the attacker). Ties on an opposed test would only ever be treated as an actual tie if there is not a defender (such as a competition that does not directly affect either party).

RAW, you can either not hide at all from Astral Perception (meaning they make a success test that you can't oppose to see your aura), which is what SR4A says, or you can go with what the FAQ says which is that you can hide from Assensing if you are dual-natured (by using logic or agility plus infiltration) or on the astral (logic+infiltration) but still can't hide at all if you are mundane. A lot of people houserule this in various ways, but FYI.

No.

Presumably, you are talking about the Assensing test used to read a persons aura, which is not opposed. This is entirely separate from "noticing" the aura to begin with. Astral Perception does not 'bypass' an Infiltration test; the perceiving character still must make a (Astral) Perception check to notice the aura. If they do, then they may take an action to assense the character's aura (again, this is not 'seeing' the aura, this is examining it).

[Troyminator]

Thanks for all the advice and keep it coming. I really apprecaite it.

[TheOOB]

Technically, there is no defender in stealth checks, and if so, who would it be?

[TheOOB]

EDIT: Double Post

[Saint Sithney]

As mentioned, Ghouls have Astral Perception and are blind. This means that they don't roll Perception to spot people, they roll Assensing to "see" things [they do still roll Perception for other senses like hearing].

RAW, you can either not hide at all from Astral Perception (meaning they make a success test that you can't oppose to see your aura), which is what SR4A says, or you can go with what the FAQ says which is that you can hide from Assensing if you are dual-natured (by using logic or agility plus infiltration) or on the astral (logic+infiltration) but still can't hide at all if you are mundane. A lot of people houserule this in various ways, but FYI.

Otherwise what people have already said is correct. You might want to think about how you want to run astral perception vs. mundane infiltration.

Never underestimate the proliferation of cyber technology in the 6th world.

Getting cybereyes is as easy as going to the mall filling your prescription at lenscrafters is today. Something to consider, which isn't really covered by the rules or the fluff, is that the human eye is kind of shit, and it's one of the best eyes out there. A cybereye would have a better, fuller field of vision, without blind spots or color loss. Cybereyes are perfect vision with depth of color completely unmatched by anything a human has ever seen before. Plenty of civvies would opt into that, and those same civvies have the same chance of catching the HMHVV-III.

[Ascalaphus]

And if you're infected with a disease that makes you blind, those cybereyes are even more attractive.

[KCKitsune]

Cybereyes are the best friend that a Mage can get. I mean let's look at Rating 3 cybereyes. For Rating 3, you can get Thermo, Lowlight, flare comp, Vision Mag, Vision Enhance 2, and Smartlink (for those times you need to shoot a gun*). This almost completely eliminates you vision penalties** and all of this for a measly 8750 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and .4 Essence. For the other .6 Essence, get something like a Synaptic Booster or other fun things like that.


For some ghouls this can make it so that they are not dual-natured any more. So yeah, they loose the ability to perceive the astral for the ability to see in the real world and not get ass-raped by some astrally projecting mage.

* == which should be almost as much as you sling spells. Slinging Mojo hurts. Slinging lead... not so much.

** == there are times that some vision penalties can't be removed, but those should be rare.

[phlapjack77]

are you holding to the idea that a mage can't use magic with all of the above non-essence vision mods? If not, it seems like contacts / glasses are a much better use of nuyen and essence than cybereyes, esp. for a mage...

[Epicedion]

No.

Ties are not "just ties". In the event of a tie on an opposed test, the defender is considered to have won (exception: touch attacks, tie goes to the attacker). Ties on an opposed test would only ever be treated as an actual tie if there is not a defender (such as a competition that does not directly affect either party).

From the Opposed Tests section:

In the event of a tie, the action is typically a stalemate, and the characters have to choose between continuing with another test or withdrawing. If the gamemaster needs or wants a result on a tie, then rule in favor of the defending character.

Mighty big if there.

[TheOOB]

As there is no defender in perception vs stealth, by rights auto victory shouldn't go to either.

[Cain]

are you holding to the idea that a mage can't use magic with all of the above non-essence vision mods? If not, it seems like contacts / glasses are a much better use of nuyen and essence than cybereyes, esp. for a mage...

Away from my books, but vision enhancements that are bought and paid for with Essence have always been able to be used when casting spells. This goes back to the SR1 days. There's no mechanical use for glasses, but vision enhancements bought via contacts can't be used to target spells. I allow players to use contacts to see normally under difficult conditions, but they take the full vision penalty when casting.

[UmaroVI]

No.

Presumably, you are talking about the Assensing test used to read a persons aura, which is not opposed. This is entirely separate from "noticing" the aura to begin with. Astral Perception does not 'bypass' an Infiltration test; the perceiving character still must make a (Astral) Perception check to notice the aura. If they do, then they may take an action to assense the character's aura (again, this is not 'seeing' the aura, this is examining it).

This is a perfectly reasonable houserule, but not RAW. See the FAQ. You can only use Infiltration to avoid Astral Perception if you are dual-natured (such as astrally perceiving yourself) or astrally projecting.

[Mr Clock]

My take: a dual natured creature (physical body, astrally perceiving) still needs to get LOS to see a target, and does not provide 360 degree vision. Infiltration is about not being seen. As long as you take decent care to stay out of the perceiving character's vision cone, sure you can sneak up on them, astral perception or no. It's a lot harder, because darkness and contributing factors such as camouflage are now irrelevant, and your aura may bleed out around cover or cast a glow that will alert the perceiving character, but not impossible.

As regards ties, they go to the perceiving character. I'm taking this as RAI, based on the Disguise skill (also in the Stealth group). The rating of the disguise is used as a threshold. If the perceiver gets equal or more hits, you're busted.

[phlapjack77]

Away from my books, but vision enhancements that are bought and paid for with Essence have always been able to be used when casting spells. This goes back to the SR1 days. There's no mechanical use for glasses, but vision enhancements bought via contacts can't be used to target spells. I allow players to use contacts to see normally under difficult conditions, but they take the full vision penalty when casting.

No, I agree that things paid for with Essence are now part of the mage, and all spell-casting proceeds normally.

But you inadvertently answered my question, I think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . I hope you're keeping vision mag out of your list of non-targetable vision enhancements (as long as the character has the optical version).

[Ascalaphus]

As there is no defender in perception vs stealth, by rights auto victory shouldn't go to either.

I'm of the opinion that the watcher is trying to expose the stealthy person, and that makes the stealthy person a defender.

In a normal Perception check, you need to get 1+ successes to see something inanimate, a stealthy character just has a higher threshold to be seen.