Questions after the first gaming session, What the hell was I doing? Options

[LurkerOutThere]

As there is no defender in perception vs stealth, by rights auto victory shouldn't go to either.

Hang on that's silly logic, since defender isn't defined lets look at who's initiating the act, the sneaky person, otherwise the other person just sees them as normal. If your trying to sneak past someone your trying to keep them from noticing you, they are defending against you trying to bamboozle them, same as they might be in a social test.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hang on that's silly logic, since defender isn't defined lets look at who's initiating the act, the sneaky person, otherwise the other person just sees them as normal. If your trying to sneak past someone your trying to keep them from noticing you, they are defending against you trying to bamboozle them, same as they might be in a social test.

Could go the other way. The Sneaker is defending against the Perception of the Patrolling Guard. Works both ways...

[LurkerOutThere]

Except who is there offensively, the guard or the sneaker. The guard is supposed to be there by definition the sneaker is not, if it's not a direct attack it's usually the prelude to such.

[Ascalaphus]

It doesn't really matter, you can just define that in all cases the watcher or the sneaker will be the aggressor, and just stick with it for the rest of the campaign. As long as the PCs do both watching and sneaking from time to time, it'll be fair enough.

[Troyminator]

This is the debate we had at the table. I had forgotten that ghouls are blind and astrally precieve. They wouldn't have been using the cameras anyway.

Hang on that's silly logic, since defender isn't defined lets look at who's initiating the act, the sneaky person, otherwise the other person just sees them as normal. If your trying to sneak past someone your trying to keep them from noticing you, they are defending against you trying to bamboozle them, same as they might be in a social test.

Could go the other way. The Sneaker is defending against the Perception of the Patrolling Guard. Works both ways...

[Saint Sithney]

The guard is trying to notice intruders. The infiltrator is trying to not be noticed.
or
The infiltrator is trying to go unnoticed. The guard is trying to not allow an infiltrator to go unnoticed.

Quick! Which of those sounds retarded? [it's the second one.]



Oh! side note! Astral perception is not accomplished with the eyes, so cutting out a ghoul's eyes will only stop the dual natured/astral perception if it also drops their magic to 0.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh! side note! Astral perception is not accomplished with the eyes, so cutting out a ghoul's eyes will only stop the dual natured/astral perception if it also drops their magic to 0.

Actually, the cutting out of the eyes does nothing but remove the eyes. It does not impact Essence at all. It is the replacement of the Eyes with Cybernetics/Bioware that impacts the essence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[LonePaladin]

Regarding the "defender wins ties" thing.

First, I'll quote the book.

In the event of a tie, the action is typically a stalemate, and the characters have to choose between continuing with another test or withdrawing. If the gamemaster needs or wants a result on a tie, then rule in favor of the defending character.

A straightforward way to decide "who's the defender" is to figure out who took the action that called for the test in the first place. The other person should then be considered the 'defender', because they're reacting to the action (though not necessarily consciously).

In some cases, ties might only favor the defender slightly; for stealth skills, the person making the Perception roll might get one of those sneaking suspicions, but have to actively make another Perception check to figure out what they're missing.

To use the Infiltration idea:

• Joe Shadowrunner is trying to sneak past a security guard. When he makes his move, he is taking action; if using the tie-breaker option, ties go to the guard. (On a tie, you might get the "What was that noise?" reaction.)
• Joe realizes the guard's hackles are up, and freezes in place. This time, the guard's actually paying close attention, while Joe tries to hold still. This is the same test as before, but this time Joe's the 'defender', and gets to win on a tie. ("Probably nothing.")

[braincraft]

One could define the 'defender' as the one trying to preserve the status quo.

Let's say someone tries to shoot me. The status quo is that I don't have any bullets in me. The shooter wants to change that. He is the attacker, I am the defender.

Of course, then you have to ask what the status quo of an infiltration is. Is the status quo that you are outside, and that you want to change that by sneaking inside? Or is the status quo that the guards don't know you're there, and their perception roll is an attempt to change their awareness of the situation?

This all seems pretty moot, since this is an obvious situation in which a draw is a valid result. Neither party accomplishes their goal; the infiltrator doesn't get in, but neither are the guards alerted.

Making the dorf sprint away from a pack of ghouls is probably the more interesting outcome, though.