Aimed Shotgun Blast Options

[DrZaius]

So, here's the scenario. I'm firing a shotgun at a mook security guard, who is wearing an armor vest. I drop 4 dice to 'aim' the blast towards his head (dropping the dice to remove armor, not add damage). Now that the mook doesn't have any armor left, he shouldn't get the +5 AP from the shotgun, right? I suppose I'm not surprised a shotgun to the face is effective, but that seems brutal if I'm right. Have I figured it out correctly, or is there a step I'm missing?

Thanks,
DrZ

[Epicedion]

So, here's the scenario. I'm firing a shotgun at a mook security guard, who is wearing an armor vest. I drop 4 dice to 'aim' the blast towards his head (dropping the dice to remove armor, not add damage). Now that the mook doesn't have any armor left, he shouldn't get the +5 AP from the shotgun, right? I suppose I'm not surprised a shotgun to the face is effective, but that seems brutal if I'm right. Have I figured it out correctly, or is there a step I'm missing?

Thanks,
DrZ

As written, that's more or less correct. However you may want to consider that if the target doesn't have a large unarmored part of the body (wears a helmet, for example) you may want to still apply the +5 to represent that.

[Critias]

So, here's the scenario. I'm firing a shotgun at a mook security guard, who is wearing an armor vest. I drop 4 dice to 'aim' the blast towards his head (dropping the dice to remove armor, not add damage). Now that the mook doesn't have any armor left, he shouldn't get the +5 AP from the shotgun, right? I suppose I'm not surprised a shotgun to the face is effective, but that seems brutal if I'm right. Have I figured it out correctly, or is there a step I'm missing?

Thanks,
DrZ

If you're bypassing armor, you're bypassing armor. It's not just a shotgun thing, any flechette weapon can do it (and be almost as messy). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[DrZaius]

If you're bypassing armor, you're bypassing armor. It's not just a shotgun thing, any flechette weapon can do it (and be almost as messy). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Unless of course you're shooting a troll; I presume you can't bypass dermal armor with an aimed shot.

[Sengir]

Unless of course you're shooting a troll; I presume you can't bypass dermal armor with an aimed shot.

The description of trolls says they have irregular bone deposits rather than an "iron skin", so you could claim to aim somewhere where there's only soft skin. RAI of course, as all parts of aimed shots.

[Yerameyahu]

The RAW doesn't care about logical or plausible, so yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mr Clock]

If you're bypassing armor, you're bypassing armor. It's not just a shotgun thing, any flechette weapon can do it (and be almost as messy). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Between you and me, I would just give the player -4 for a face shot. Aiming to bypass armour kinda implies (yes, RAI rather than RAW) that you're aiming for a joint or a seam rather than just an unarmoured location. That's why the penalty for aiming for a body part is fixed while aiming to bypass armour is variable.

As given, I would agree that the AP bonus from shot rounds becomes irrelevant when firing at an unarmoured location. I might consider houseruling it as a head has less area to catch shot than a body plus limbs, but that's for another day.

[Mäx]

Don't you first apply the weapons AP value, before seeing how many dice you loose from ignoring armor?

[Mr Clock]

Don't you first apply the weapons AP value, before seeing how many dice you loose from ignoring armor?

I don't see that the AP of the weapon has a bearing on the accuracy, so no. I'm sure that a trained shooter will take armour penetration into account when trying to line up a trick shot, though.

[James McMurray]

Why would you take a -4 to bypass armor anyway? +4 DV is much better, even if they're getting +5 armor from flechette.

[Yerameyahu]

You're right, you'd basically never do that. However, for the sake of answering the question… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

Why would you take a -4 to bypass armor anyway? +4 DV is much better, even if they're getting +5 armor from flechette.

Because it's -4 to the dice pool to attack, which is ~1DV. Doing so would negate about 9 points of armor, which is ~2-3 hits to soak damage.

That aside, what the armor/called shot rules don't cover is armor coverage. An armor vest might only cover the torso, while a lined coat might cover the arms, torso, and most of the legs. Even though they have the same armor values, it would theoretically be harder to perform a called shot (to bypass armor) on someone wearing a lined coat.

The system as written is fast, dirty, and abstract.

What you could do is just hash out some sort of standard table for called shots and house rule them. Something like:

Head: -6
Torso: -2
Upper Limb (bicep/thigh): -4
Lower Limb (forearm/lower leg): -6
Hand or Foot: -8

Those are just rough figures that I thought about for 10 seconds. Then you could consider armor coverage: vests would cover the torso, armored and lined coats (and anything that's a full suit, like armored clothing) would cover the arms, torso, and upper legs. Full body armor would cover everything but the head. Helmets would cover the head.

Then you could say that to perform a called shot against someone in a lined coat, you'd have to go after the Head, Hand, Lower Leg, or Foot. You could also say that if you perform a called shot against the head, only the helmet armor (if any) would apply.

You could also say that if someone is wearing layered armor such as, say, an armored vest and a leather jacket, the armored vest would apply against called shots to the torso, but the leather jacket would apply against the arms, and nothing would apply to the legs, feet, hands, or head.

If you wanted to get even more complicated, you could allow people to make piecemeal armor outfits -- against regular (non-called) shots you'd just take the average of the overall armor, but against called shots, different areas of the body could have their own armor values.

[Yerameyahu]

The rule is -X DP to ignore someone's X-level armor. That's it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anything else is a house rule. I see the mild trickery of avoiding the +5 AP from flechette… I doubt I'd allow that, but it might fly. The whole issue of shotguns and armor in SR4 is a little suspect to begin with, after all.

[Mr Clock]

Why would you take a -4 to bypass armor anyway? +4 DV is much better, even if they're getting +5 armor from flechette.

Lets pretend the target has monster armour with a 4/4 helmet and 20/20 for the full body suit. You call for bypass armour, 4 points, aim for an eye socket or a seam.

Regarding the numbers for called shots, and I'm going to quote RAW here, it's "Target a vital area in order to increase damage. The attacking character can choose to increase the DV of his attack by +1 to +4, but receives an equivalent dice pool modifier to the attack." SR4, page 150.

Now, based on that, it's my understanding that the head would be a high damage target area. Thus, +4 to damage, -4 to the dice pool. It's also given that a shot to a held item that lands a DV higher than the target's Strength causes them to drop it. To make such a shot is a -4 penalty. Should you want to houserule different levels of penalties, that's between you and your table, but these are the rules given by the book. Personally I think half the problem is due to dice pool inflation resulting from increasing levels of "optimal" builds, but nevermind...

[UmaroVI]

Lets pretend the target has monster armour with a 4/4 helmet and 20/20 for the full body suit. You call for bypass armour, 4 points, aim for an eye socket or a seam.

If they have 20/20 body armor and a 4/4 helmet, they have 24/24 armor. SR doesn't have sectional armor rules. A called shot to bypass their armor would be at -24 dice.

Called shot to bypass armor is very rarely useful. If you get caught using Flechette ammo against somebody you want to do lethal damage to, then it's not a totally terrible idea - if, for example, you're up against a drone with armor 10 using a flechette weapon or shotgun, you're probably not going to hurt it at all just by shooting it or even by making called shots for +4 DV, but you might be able to get in a lucky shot at -10 dice and oneshot it. The real moral of the story is "don't use shotguns or flechette if you can avoid it, cause they suck."

[CanRay]

I don't care how big and tough your troll is. A shotgun blast to the pelvis is going to put them down.

[Jhaiisiin]

A creature that can toss a car and shrug off most attacks might not be put down by a single blast to the hip. Certainly might stagger them, but there's always that chance you'll pop them and they'll just look at you like "Really?"

[Yerameyahu]

CanRay: Unless you use the rules, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

OK. Let me rephrase.

Not Pelvis.

Groin.

Rules or not, male, female... Unless they're a Cyberzombie (Who is probably missing those parts, which is part of their problem!), you're going down for at least a single count. Although, admittedly, with some characters, that might just piss them off a lot.

*Snikt*

[Jhaiisiin]

Okay, rules be damned. I agree there.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't many kinds of full body armor specifically have groin protectors? Even just in SR4, there's a PPP option just for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Honestly, shadowrunning without a codpiece is just asking for trouble.

[CanRay]

Even a lot of vests comes with groin protection. So the bullets won't penetrate, the kinetic force is still distributed to your groin.

Heavy bruising instead of penetration is still a bad thing in that sensitive area. Of course, it's one hell of a hard shot to pull off as well.

[TheOOB]

OK. Let me rephrase.

Not Pelvis.

Groin.

Rules or not, male, female... Unless they're a Cyberzombie (Who is probably missing those parts, which is part of their problem!), you're going down for at least a single count. Although, admittedly, with some characters, that might just piss them off a lot.

*Snikt*

Why would you aim for a body part that doesn't affect the targets combat ability at all. I mean, pain is dangerous and all, but adrenaline makes for a mighty fine painkiller. I'd much rather aim for a hand or a foot or an eye.

[CanRay]

OK, OOB, let me kick you in the crotch, and tell me how combat capable you are afterward. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I know I would be pretty close to non-operational for at least a few clockticks, which is an eternity in combat.

As for why? Because if I'm on a Shadowrun, and I'm in a fight, I'm not going to fight dirty.

I'm going to fight in a way that makes dirty look good by comparison.

[Yerameyahu]

If you're on a shadowrun, you're going to fight in a way that's numerically optimal by the rules in use, regardless of how it looks IC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)