Spirits and Dart Pistols Options

[James McMurray]

Dart pistols need 2 hits to inject their toxin, and I can't find anything that makes armor matter for that so it looks like darts ignore Immunity to Natural Weapons. I also can't find anything that makes spirits immune to toxins. Can a dart loaded with Narcoject take out a spirit by the RAW?

[BishopMcQ]

Since the description says that the dart has to penetrate the armor, I'd rule that the Immunity stands. If the Power of the attack is less than the Rating of the hardened armor, the attack is negated. If the power exceeds the Rating, then the drug is injected.

[James McMurray]

Since the description says that the dart has to penetrate the armor, I'd rule that the Immunity stands. If the Power of the attack is less than the Rating of the hardened armor, the attack is negated. If the power exceeds the Rating, then the drug is injected.

Dart Pistols don't have a power. Two hits lets you penetrate armor.

"Effects depend on the drug payload, but to successfully deliver the payload and penetrate armor, the attacker needs two net hits on the Ranged Combat Opposed Test." (SR4A p. 324)

[BishopMcQ]

The Damage modifier in the table, says "As Drug/Toxin" which means that the power of the attack is equal to the Toxin's power.

Narcojet has a Power 10--That will exceed the rating of the hardened armor for Force 1-4 Spirits, and higher Force spirits depending on net hits. Thus the hardened armor won't negate the attack. If using Narcojet against a Force 8 spirit, with 16/16 hardened armor, the dart is going to bounce off harmlessly except for a perfectly placed shot. (Power 10 + 6 net hits to raise DV)

If you were to use a dart with a lower Power, say 6 for example, then it would reduce the Force of spirits that it bypasses automatically.

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That is the best I can interpret based on RAW, to be balanced to the player, and not completely ignore the spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons. I can see an equal argument for saying that spirits are immune to Dart Guns, since Arsenal lists Dartgun as a 0DV attack, and states that Military armor is immune to them. If the military can seal armor sufficiently, I don't see how a magical immunity can't either.

The problem with ruling that the spirit is immune to a Dart Pistol is that it removes options for non-awakened characters to deal with magical security. I don't like removing options which is why I read the RAW the way I did above.

[CanRay]

Load it with the most toxic insecticide you can find, and you have something that will kill Metahumans and Insect Spirits. Two kills for the price of one!

And it wouldn't even be that expensive. Hard part is finding the really powerful stuff that even Aztlan has banned due to Health Concerns. That's the stuff you're aiming for.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, Military Grade Armor ignores Darts... I would saay that the Hardened Armor of Spirits does the same...

[LurkerOutThere]

Why, no other logic applies to magic, why should this.

[Method]

Why, no other logic applies to magic, why should this.

HA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Tanegar]

Does a materialized spirit have a circulatory system, or indeed anything we would recognize as the biochemical basis for life? I would tend to say no, and on that basis that they are immune to attacks which rely on the target being organic and alive. Whether spirits qualify as "life" is up for debate, but they are almost certainly not organic as we understand the term.

[James McMurray]

They don't have Immunity to Pathogens/Toxins, and even that wouldn't make them completely immune. If/when it comes up I plan to describe it as the spirit having a metaphysical reaction to the introduction of a highly processed chemical designed to cause harm.

I hadn't seen the note under military armor that darts are 0 DV weapons. That looks like it closes the hole. Thanks folks!

[Yerameyahu]

Both the question of toxins on materialized spirits and how darts do/should work are pretty unsettled. RAW, toxins work on *cars* and darts will penetrate 30 armor (including vehicles, just as long as it's not milspec). Obviously, the group/GM should do some reasonable interpretation and stick with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Method]

The mechanics for doing things in Shadowrun are actually ab-
stract guidelines for all of an individual’s actions, including combat,
vehicle movement, and even how individuals think and react. These
rules are not meant to be a direct copy of how things really work—
they can’t be. We try to approximate conditions and situations in
reality as much as possible, but that can only go so far. That being
said, we urge you to appreciate the rules in Shadowrun for what
they are and not stress out when they don’t simulate real life per-
fectly or fail to take into account certain conditions or factors. If
something in these rules doesn’t quite fit or make sense to you, feel
free to change it. If you come up with a game mechanic that you
think works better—go for it!

Toxins only work on cars or spirits if you want them to. In my game they don't because thats dumb.

[Yerameyahu]

Exactly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The important thing is remembering that toxins are only for insect spirits, and they're Inhabitation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Anything else is playing wrong. Hehe.

[Method]

I agree, inhabitation is a whole different ball game.

And I'd like to point out that unless you're talking about something like an organophosphate, there aren't a lot of insecticides that are going to kill a human fast enough to matter in SR. Sure there are a whole lot that aren't good for you, will make you very sick and might kill you, but if the goal is to take out enemy threats in combat engagements measured in fractions of seconds, waiting around for hours while somebody dies from insecticide poisoning isn't going to be very useful... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

waiting around for hours while somebody dies from insecticide poisoning isn't going to be very useful... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Unless you took the Vindictive bastard flaw, then shooting at people as they run away can be fun.

[Cain]

Look at it this way: If I spilled radioactive waste on a car, you would imagine that the car would get pretty well damaged by it. If you do the same thing to a non-Toxic spirit, no one here would have a problem with it. If I immersed a regular spirit in acid or poison, why wouldn't the spirit be affected? Come on, doesn't anyone remember Captain Planet? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So, what you're really arguing is dose size. Toxins are poisons. It's just a question of how much is required. Is enough toxic sludge to kill or stun a metahuman enough to affect a spirit on a good shot? By RAW, the answer is yes; and by fluff, the answer is yes. You'll just have to roleplay figuring out how much to use.

[Yerameyahu]

You're comparing toxins and chemicals. Radioactive waste is not a toxin. Acid is not a toxin.

[CanRay]

Radioactive Waste is stored in "Safety Barrels" and placed in secure locations like the basements of Federally-Funded Grade Schools. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cain]

You're comparing toxins and chemicals. Radioactive waste is not a toxin. Acid is not a toxin.

Many toxins are, in fact, organic acids. Method is a MD, he can give examples. Toxic waste is pretty toxic, and doesn't even need to be that chemically complex.

[Yerameyahu]

True. And yet, you're still falsely equating toxins with chemicals in SR4, where they have special meanings. The distinction is important. Acid will hurt a human or a car; narcoject will hurt a human, but not a car (unless you play Neraph-RAW, hehe).
There is toxic waste that will hurt a human, and not a car. It's a big category, and not one that's used in SR4 rules.

If a poison happens to be an organic acid, but not a strong 'SR4 chemical' acid ("Acid damage"), then it will hurt the human and not the car.

Yup, kind of a mess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Luckily, there are very few dangerous 'chemicals' in SR4 that aren't actually 'toxins' (poisons). The only ones I can think of are 'generic acids/alkalis', which both do Acid Damage. I'd rule that no *toxin* affects a materialized spirit; Acid would.

[Cain]

True. And yet, you're still falsely equating toxins with chemicals in SR4, where they have special meanings. The distinction is important. Acid will hurt a human or a car; narcoject will hurt a human, but not a car (unless you play Neraph-RAW, hehe).
There is toxic waste that will hurt a human, and not a car. It's a big category, and not one that's used in SR4 rules.

If a poison happens to be an organic acid, but not a strong 'SR4 chemical' acid ("Acid damage"), then it will hurt the human and not the car.

Yup, kind of a mess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Luckily, there are very few dangerous 'chemicals' in SR4 that aren't actually 'toxins' (poisons). The only ones I can think of are 'generic acids/alkalis', which both do Acid Damage. I'd rule that no *toxin* affects a materialized spirit; Acid would.

"kind of a mess"? And do you really want to be drawing that fine of a line? Especially since we're discussing spirits.

Basically, why shouldn't fugu venom or belladonna hurt a spirit? They're both non-normal weapons, and they have toxic equivalents in Shadowrun. If we're talking about a Plant spirit, why won't herbicides work on them? The case can easily be made that both acidic waste and poisonous organic acids should cause harm to a spirit. And then, we start getting into examples like Narcojet, which is essentially just a nonlethal toxin.

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, materialized spirits are made of something like ectoplasm, regardless of their type. Physical, but not a biological/organic system, which is what toxins affect. *shrug* Do what you want, but the game has a very clear category 'toxins' (poisons that affect metahumans and animals).

[Seth]

Basically, why shouldn't fugu venom or belladonna hurt a spirit?

Street magic:

The most commonly accepted interpretation of their data is that spirits are largely composed of some kind of common arcane material regardless of apparent structure—a recombinant protoplasm that replicates function, mass, texture and properties near enough as to provide no physical difference

Despite having no nervous systems,

There are many quotes like this

• Belladona has http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticholinergic properties. These affect the nervous system.
• Fugu venom also attacks the nervous system
• I support the statement that acid would work: thats covered by acid damage in which half the spirits ITnW works

Last time I looked a ball of fire wasn't bothered if you wanted to burn some weeds, or fish in it.

Do what you want, but the game has a very clear category 'toxins' (poisons that affect metahumans and animals).

I would include many paracritters in that, but I fully support your sentiment

[phlapjack77]

Bravo! I'm glad there are some actual rules to back up "common sense" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

how long before someone claims this is fluff, and not crunch?

[Cain]

AFAIK, materialized spirits are made of something like ectoplasm, regardless of their type. Physical, but not a biological/organic system, which is what toxins affect. *shrug* Do what you want, but the game has a very clear category 'toxins' (poisons that affect metahumans and animals).

Again, suppose I know I'm facing down plant spirits, and bring in a powerful herbicide, like maybe the 2070 equivalent of Agent Orange. The new stuff is designed to not affect metahumans so much, but it should do a number on a plant spirit. These "toxins" wouldn't have much of an effect on metahumans and animals, but you break the suspension of disbelief when you say it can't work on a walking shrubbery.