Spirits and Dart Pistols Options

[Yerameyahu]

I don't believe vacuum is an issue for spirits (as rarely as they might encounter it anyway). They're not pressurized, AFAIK, or made of water (even water spirits), and those are the two reasons that vacuum hurts living things, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Spirits are not living subjects at all.

Would spirits have "Immunity" to vacuum? That's not radioactive, a chemical, a drug or a toxin. It won't damage cars (though the air-pressure in pneumatic components might damage the cars) but it will have adverse effects on living beings such as (meta)humans and (para)critters (except moss piglets). But would it have any effect on Spirits (which are not alive)?

Yes, although this may vary by spirit type. The vacuum of space means no manasphere, which in turn means you're in a manawarp which decidedly hurts spirits. If you're talking a vacuum chamber on earth, you still have to contend with an air spirit's materialized form getting torn apart, which has got to hurt it somewhat. Just like plant spirits and defoliants, some things you do have to assume, with the law of Sympathy being what it is.

[Bodak]

I am referring explicitly to vacuum - nothing to do with space, different gravity, radiation, etc etc etc. Vacuum - that's all. Otherwise we'd be talking about drugs made of radioactive isotopes.

I don't know why an air (or fire) spirit materialising within a vacuum would be "torn apart". Do you have a page reference for that?

[Yerameyahu]

It makes even less sense than a plant spirit being hurt by herbicides (do they even exist in the game?). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

I am referring explicitly to vacuum - nothing to do with space, different gravity, radiation, etc etc etc. Vacuum - that's all. Otherwise we'd be talking about drugs made of radioactive isotopes.

There are many drugs made out of radioactive isotopes.

It makes even less sense than a plant spirit being hurt by herbicides (do they even exist in the game?). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If it can be made via the Chemistry skill, it potentially exists (and might, in some game).

[Yerameyahu]

So, no? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They certainly exist in the Sixth World, of course, but I just think it's interesting you keep mentioning something that's not even part of the game, when there's a whole list of actual things called Toxins.

I'd be possibly amenable to houseruling that Plant Spirits have the Weakness: Allergy (universal herbicides), in the same way Fire and Water spirits have opposite Allergies. Plant spirits don't have that in the rules, though. I think it's probably a mistake to say that plant spirits 'are plants' (in whichever respect), though.

[Bodak]

There are many drugs made out of radioactive isotopes.

Of course - it would be nigh impossible to avoid. I don't see how this is relevant though. Did you find that page number for air (or any) spirits being "torn apart" by vacua?

[Cain]

First, show me where it says they're immune to pressure damage, such as a high-powered water cannon or a bullet.

I'd be possibly amenable to houseruling that Plant Spirits have the Weakness: Allergy (universal herbicides), in the same way Fire and Water spirits have opposite Allergies. Plant spirits don't have that in the rules, though. I think it's probably a mistake to say that plant spirits 'are plants' (in whichever respect), though.

Air spirits are air, right? Water spirits are water, and Fire spirits are fire. By that logic, plant spirits are plants, and insect spirits are insects. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

Air spirits are air, right? Water spirits are water, and Fire spirits are fire. By that logic, plant spirits are plants, and insect spirits are insects. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Well, no, actually none of those spirits are the same thing as their mundane counterpart. They just happen to have some of the same weaknesses.

If fire spirits were really like fire, then they wouldn't be vulnerable to fire damage, now would they?

---

Anyway, I think Yerameyahu stumbled onto the most powerful argument why spirits don't have Immunity: Toxins. Namely, that Immunity is really not immunity; it's just resistance, and you can only be Immune(Resistant) to something that can actually affect you.

Giving vehicles Immunity: Toxins would imply that if a toxin were potent enough, that it would affect vehicles.

[Bodak]

Air spirits are air, right? Water spirits are water, and Fire spirits are fire. By that logic, plant spirits are plants, and insect spirits are insects. :P

No. By that logic, Spirits of Man are men. The burden of proof lies with the one making the outlandish claims.

As Seth already pointed out, materialisation Spirits are not made of elements, plants, beasts, men, storms, skies, salamanders, guardians, guidance, tasks, hearths, cities, etc etc etc. They all are "composed of some kind of common arcane material regardless of apparent structure".

It's fine if your house rules incorporate ideas from another game but that's not the way the SR rulebooks describe them.

[Cain]

No. By that logic, Spirits of Man are men. The burden of proof lies with the one making the outlandish claims.

As Seth already pointed out, materialisation Spirits are not made of elements, plants, beasts, men, storms, skies, salamanders, guardians, guidance, tasks, hearths, cities, etc etc etc. They all are "composed of some kind of common arcane material regardless of apparent structure".

It's fine if your house rules incorporate ideas from another game but that's not the way the SR rulebooks describe them.

I actually have never played an enjoyable game of D&D 3.5, so that's just a strawman.

What is true is that the laws of Sympathy exist in Shadowrun magic. SO, rather it's air or an airlike substance, it's magical enough to share many of the same properties. So, you can put out a fire elemental with a fire extinguisher, despite the fact that most modern fire extinguishers aren't water or have rules in Shadowrun. Acid hurts spirits, even though they're made of an arcane material. Hell, bullets shouldn't affect a spirit, by that logic. If you go too far down the handwaving and chanting "Its' MAAAAGIC" path, you'll end up concluding that spirits cannot be hurt by mundane means at all, which is just insane.

[Seth]

I actually have never played an enjoyable game of D&D 3.5, so that's just a strawman.

That's just your GM. You can have an enjoyable game with any game system even Whitewolf or D&D4e (and that's scrapping the barrel). Personally I think 3.5 is nearly OK as far as game systems go, as long as you keep the levels quite low...3 to 8 is my favourite.

[Method]

This whole argument is silly. Does it say that fish or submarines are immune to water damage? Are blind characters immune to flash packs? Does is say that deaf characters are immune to sound-based attacks? Maybe CGL should start work on a book called "The SR compendium of things that don't hurt metahumans" and make sure that the appropriate Immunity to _______ is added for every entry.

The only reason I can think of to press this argument is because you've determined that toxins are the most effective means of dealing damage within the SR rule set and you want your character to carry one weapon that allows him to win SR. It's the same as peoples obsession with stick n shock. Yep, nothing says "hardened criminal in a dystopia future world" like running around with phasers set to stun all the time. Nevermind if it doesn't fit the setting, tone or flavor of the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

What is true is that the laws of Sympathy exist in Shadowrun magic. SO, rather it's air or an airlike substance, it's magical enough to share many of the same properties.

No, not really:

On the Forms of Spirits
Spirits appear on initial inspection to incorporate a great
diversity of materials into their corporeal forms, from water to
bone, fire to plasteel. After decades of study, it appears that the
materialized forms of spirits are not actually composed of pre-
viously recognized substances. Indeed, the studies of Halthmer
et al. demonstrate basic property equivalencies in the constitu-
ent structures present in earth elementals and the spirit of Mt.
Rainier. The most commonly accepted interpretation of their
data is that spirits are largely composed of some kind of common
arcane material regardless of apparent structure—a recombinant
protoplasm that replicates function, mass, texture and properties
near enough as to provide no physical difference.

> In English, that means that a spirit is just as dangerous if it
looks like a little girl with a lollipop as it is if it looks like a sword-
wielding oni. A spirit can cut you in half just as well with a card-
board tube as with a katana.
> Sticks
> Unless that happens to be a katana that the spirit, y’know,
picked up. Not all weapons wielded by spirits are part of the
spirit’s form.
> Haze

Substantial evidence exists that arcane properties and ar-
chetypical elemental oppositions also translate as properties
of corporeal materialized forms. Spirits associated with water,
such as water elementals, sylphs, and river spirits, exhibit hostile
reactions to fire, and spirits tied to fire react similarly to water.

Another intriguing aspect of a spirit’s corporeal form is
its senses. Despite having no nervous systems, spirits react
negatively to damage to their physical and astral forms—simi-
lar to how a physical creature displays pain. Spirits frequently
object to being sent into positions where disruption is likely,
and when directly questioned about the phenomenon, spir-
its have tended to describe disruption as an agonizing event
more often than as simple dissipation. Likewise a spirit’s sen-
sory perception is very different from our own. Even when a
spirit materializes into our world, it still exists primarily as an
astral creature. When observing an object, a spirit sees the au-
ras and shadows first and the physical characteristics second.
Physical details metahumans characterize as obvious are fre-
quently overlooked entirely by spirits. Interaction with tech-
nological display devices and simsense such as commlinks and
simrigs is even more tenuous. The location of a spirit’s visual
ability is at the very least variable; and as there is no nervous
system to connect to, the technical difficulties of making such
an AR setup are far from trivial.

As they see here, what the spirit looks like has very little to do with what it is. Fom =/= Function. The laws of sympathy don't apply.

So, you can put out a fire elemental with a fire extinguisher, despite the fact that most modern fire extinguishers aren't water or have rules in Shadowrun. Acid hurts spirits, even though they're made of an arcane material. Hell, bullets shouldn't affect a spirit, by that logic. If you go too far down the handwaving and chanting "Its' MAAAAGIC" path, you'll end up concluding that spirits cannot be hurt by mundane means at all, which is just insane.

The way I read the text in Street Magic, Materialized spirits are more like a blob of ectoplasm held together by the spirit's essence. Kind of like iron filings shaped into a pattern by a magnet. They tend to react badly to big, impacty things that tear out chunks of ectoplasm or make holding it together hard, by consuming it's pseudomatter in a brutal chemical reaction (fire, acid). But they don't have a nervous system, so something that relies on attacking the particular metahuman physiology like neurostun (presumably a neurotoxin) wouldn't find anything to affect.

[Stahlseele]

It boils down to:
The rules don't say they are not affected the same as everybody else
The fluff says they are not affected by ANYTHING but magic.

Either you accept that players can KO spirits with tasers and needles with drugs or you accept that nothing aside from magic can even hurt a spirit.

[Seth]

Either you accept that players can KO spirits with tasers and needles with drugs or you accept that nothing aside from magic can even hurt a spirit.

Or you play the rules:

• Immunity to normal weapons is 2* force
• vs elemental damage it's 1*force
• Drugs mostly don't work

Edit: and as pointed out in the next post force of will works really well.

[Method]

Either you accept that players can KO spirits with tasers and needles with drugs or you accept that nothing aside from magic can even hurt a spirit.

But this is inaccurate. If a spirit materializes you can still harm them physically and with force of will attacks. If you are arguing that these aren't as effective as magic, well so be it. So you need a mage to effectively deal with tough magical threats? How is that any different than other characters excelling in their specialized areas? I'd argue that you need a hacker for difficult matrix tasks or a street sam for intense combats.

[Seth]

A decent street sam makes mince meat of most spirits unless they are of a power level that the spirit can wipe out an army.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A decent street sam makes mince meat of most spirits unless they are of a power level that the spirit can wipe out an army.

Which SHOULD be quite rare indeed...

[Method]

Agreed.

[phlapjack77]

It's topics like this that have me adopting something Ascalaphus said as a sig

*grumble*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's topics like this that have me adopting something Ascalaphus said as a sig

The problem, as I have noticed, is that Common Sense often isn't.

[Yerameyahu]

At least give Voltaire credit when you quote him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cain, are you trolling us? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) No one said bullets caused 'pressure damage', or that vacuum does, for that matter. And *everyone* said that air spirits *aren't* air. Repeatedly, hehe.

And you keep bringing up that 'you'll have to say that bullets don't hurt them, hurr' argument. Physical damage hurts sprits; Acid damage is physical (possibly even Elemental) damage, bullets are physical damage, etc. Toxins are biological, which *is* different.

[pbangarth]

This is the crux of the issue: biological damage is not the same as physical damage. Spirits are not biological, and cannot be affected, positively or negatively, by biological means. They can be torn apart, burned by acid, shot, sliced.... whatever physical thing you want to do to them.

By the same token, metahumans, not being made of spiritual energy, cannot be affected by attacks of will.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is the crux of the issue: biological damage is not the same as physical damage. Spirits are not biological, and cannot be affected, positively or negatively, by biological means. They can be torn apart, burned by acid, shot, sliced.... whatever physical thing you want to do to them.

By the same token, metahumans, not being made of spiritual energy, cannot be affected by attacks of will.

Yet a Spirit can be Healed by the Heal Spell, which is Biological in nature, even if it is Magic at its base. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) If a Spirit was not biological, it would never be able to benefit from any of the Health Class Spells, which they can benefit from.