[X] My Assistant

[Grinder]

Got the PDF today. The table of contents is still a step behind when compared to Adam's work. Why's every sub-chapter of "Pirate Media" bolded? Is it me or is the font of the intro fiction to "The Music Scene" in a different size then the other intro fictions?

[Pepsi Jedi]

We have street date sign! Attitude will hit the streets on April 27th!

Jason H.

Looking forward to it. *puts money aside now*

[JM Hardy]

Got the PDF today. The table of contents is still a step behind when compared to Adam's work. Why's every sub-chapter of "Pirate Media" bolded? Is it me or is the font of the intro fiction to "The Music Scene" in a different size then the other intro fictions?

It's a level-of-header thing (see also "The Right Crowd" chapter). The Pirate Media chapter doesn't use the lower-level headings that would show up as non bold.

The font of The Music Scene might need to have been adjusted to keep it to one page.

Jason H.

[Blade]

In case anyone cares about it, here is the next part of my review, about chapter 5 (The Music Scene) and 6 (The Trideo Scene)

- The Music Scene : The part about the instruments is good. It brings back elements from the Sprawl Survival Guide and doesn't forget the music making software. The part about the business isn't too bad but it put the emphasis on the stage and doesn't really detail the album part. The part about the bands is good but maybe a bit too long (the wordcount might have been better used elsewhere). It's good to have up to date information on old bands as well as new names, though.
It's lacking information about the Idorus and the Japanese influence that was there in the 2050s and 2060s is nearly invisible in that chapter, even though half the bands detailed have been active back then. There are a lot of ideas for using the music scene in your games, but having them summed up in a subsection (as it has been done in the Trideo chapter) would have been neat.

- The Trideo Scene : The organisation of this chapter is great and I think the Music Scene could have used the same. There are many elements that can be used in games and that's fine too. I'd have two complaints, though: first it doesn't mention any known names such as Neil the Ork Barbarian, Karl Kombat Mage or Suki Red Flower. After a Music Scene chapter that mentionned Maria Mercurial and Concrete Dreams, it's a bit surprising and disappointing. But that's not very important. My biggest complaint would be that this chapter lacks originiality and boldness. When I think about (post)-Cyberpunk medias, I think extreme shows. I think Videodrome. But what we're shown here is today's movies industry with a bit of magic and tech. There's nothing about crazy stingers ready to torture people to get to "the Truth", there's nothing about violent shows and blood sports... Oh and some information about the what/why/how of Simsense theater (as introduced in the introduction fiction) would have been nice too.

[hobgoblin]

i suspect that the blood sports have been toned down now that one is a human lifetime into the awakening.

[Blade]

- The BTL Scene: I'm confused. First, I don't understand where the Simsense went. There are some things about Simsense in the Trideo chapter (though it's always more about classic movies than Simsense) and there are things in the BTL chapter that seem closer to Simsense than to BTL, as if the writer himself didn't know the difference between the two. There are also a lot of space spent in describing physical places where you can get BTL, right after explaining that most of the time BTL is downloaded from your home. And the description of the places doesn't put much emphasis on the BTL side: in some cases it's just a description of a place (that should have been in a location book) which ends by "and you can get BTL there." So, lost wordcount on things that have little to do with the chapter. There's a huge emphasis on fantasy chips (and mostly porn/snuff), moodchips are mostly mentionned for the "happy" emotions (nothing about rage chips/berserker chips) and there's absolutely nothing about personafixes (the most interesting IMHO). It's written by Turbo-Bunny who's supposed to be a former BTL-addict but it doesn't show and when you read the Jackpointer comments it feels like everyone there does BTL. There aren't many things that can be used in game... A bad chapter.

- Playing Ball: The chapter about sports. It only covers team sports, but it's quite interesting. The tone is good, it's full of elements that you can use in your games. It could have gone a bit further (covering other sports, talking about the Olympics and so on) but there's no big lack and the space has been used well.

[Wesley Street]

Playing Ball: The chapter about sports. It only covers team sports, but it's quite interesting. The tone is good, it's full of elements that you can use in your games. It could have gone a bit further (covering other sports, talking about the Olympics and so on) but there's no big lack and the space has been used well.

And yet there are no actual team listings - just a few highlighted franchises. What's up with that? A copy-pasta of the data from Shadowbeat wouldn't have hurt anything.

There are some things about Simsense in the Trideo chapter (though it's always more about classic movies than Simsense) and there are things in the BTL chapter that seem closer to Simsense than to BTL, as if the writer himself didn't know the difference between the two.

Check out Red Anya's remarks on CrimeTime. In one space she says he is a Vory mule; in another, she says he isn't. *sigh* Attitude is full of these inconsistencies.

Pages 58-59 go into detail about various pieces of music equipment but nowhere in the book are there actual rules or even statistics that players or GMs could use. All the "attitude clothing options" should have been included in Arsenal.

[Blade]

Team listings would have been nice, it's true, especially since it wouldn't have taken too much space.

I've seen Red Anya's remarks on CrimeTime but such inconsistencies can easily be explained (I'm sure you can find a post in this forums where I support a point of view and another one where I support the opposite, or where I state different hypothesis including the one I was refusing in that other post) and it doesn't matter much to me.

I don't need rules for playing instruments just like I don't need rules for cooking or throwing a party. If it was possible to have something like Cyberpunk's Rockerboy that could (and would) attract a whole crowd and use it to help him, rules would have been needed. If it's just about playing in a band between runs I don't think we need more than what we already have. I guess prices for the instruments would have been nice, but rules I can do without.

I haven't read the clothing chapter yet but I do agree it would have been nice to have it in Arsenal.

[JM Hardy]

<snip>
Check out Red Anya's remarks on CrimeTime. In one space she says he is a Vory mule; in another, she says he isn't. *sigh* Attitude is full of these inconsistencies.

<snip>

In her bio sketch of CrimeTime in "The Right Crowd" section, Red Anya says the following: "An additional question when it comes to CrimeTime is just what he’s going to do with his Vory connection.  The fact that he has one isn’t disputed (he’s promoted by Hez Music, which is owned by two guys with strong Vory ties)—it’s the nature of the connection that people debate." She then goes on to present two narratives, one saying he's just a poser, the other saying he does some of the Vory's dirty work. This section is more journalistic in nature; at no point in this piece does she say which side she believes. That's the nature of sketches like this--you present different sides of the story, and you sublimate your own opinions. In "The Music Scene" chapter, she's not trying to present all sides--she's commenting, so she just gives her opinion on what the real truth is. Given that she never presented an opinion of her own in the bio sketch, there's no inconsistency.

Note that I snipped the other comments above not because I don't think they're important, but because they're more opinion-based, and those are the sort of comments I don't like to argue much about on forums. I'm not going to try to talk people out of their opinions on a book. The above seemed more like a factual matter, so I thought I'd clear it up.

Jason H.

[CanRay]

The only way to get to the truth of the situation is to sit CrimeTime down and try to drink the truth out of him.

And, from rumors I've heard, the guy could drink Ozzy under the table.

[Warlordtheft]

Any news one the release date for the hard copy?

[JM Hardy]

Any news one the release date for the hard copy?

Yep! Next week! April 27th is the day!

Jason H.

[Mäx]

All the "attitude clothing options" should have been included in Arsenal.

Doesn't make whole lot of sense to say that gear in a new book should have been included in an other book thats over 3 years old.

[Wesley Street]

Doesn't make whole lot of sense to say that gear in a new book should have been included in an other book thats over 3 years old.

It also doesn't make a lot of sense to have a book about the music and entertainment scene not have actual music/trid recording gear listings but there you go. Anyway, as my time machine is still in the shop, I was speaking in hyperbole. If you're going to publish military tech in a PDF supplement rather than the actual war gear book it probably wouldn't be unreasonable to have a PDF supplement that spins off of Arsenal... 30 Rides & 30 Sets of Clothes or whatever.

I've seen Red Anya's remarks on CrimeTime but such inconsistencies can easily be explained (I'm sure you can find a post in this forums where I support a point of view and another one where I support the opposite, or where I state different hypothesis including the one I was refusing in that other post) and it doesn't matter much to me.

Real life is one thing. We as people are inconsistent or deliberately contradictory. But role playing game books are first and foremost technical writing. First person "conversational" or third person tone, it doesn't matter. It's still technical writing using the framework of a fictional universe. As a gamer I expect consistency within a piece of work even if people in real life are not. Even if what's being stated is deliberately untrue. Taking the "ha ha, I know I said 'x' two pages ago but just kidding, aren't I like a real person?" approach doesn't work. Maybe if you're a very accomplished professional writer but even then I don't see it often.

I don't need rules for playing instruments just like I don't need rules for cooking or throwing a party. If it was possible to have something like Cyberpunk's Rockerboy that could (and would) attract a whole crowd and use it to help him, rules would have been needed. If it's just about playing in a band between runs I don't think we need more than what we already have. I guess prices for the instruments would have been nice, but rules I can do without.

I don't know if you played 1st edition SR but Shadowbeat (seriously, if you don't have that book see if you can find a reasonably priced copy on eBay or in a used bookstore) dedicated six solid pages of light rules about creating a band, composing music, selling an album, cashing in, et cetera. I won't say they're great rules, (Impact Tests were a little weird) but they were something that could provide more depth to a game. First edition was also in a war to "out-cyberpunk" Cyberpunk and 2300AD; there was a "Rocker" archetype presented as a pre-made character.

There are a lot of people on Dumpshock who play characters that daylight as musicians. In game, that's Kat O'Nine Tails' whole gig, rocker as runner, so it's not without precedence in 4th ed. If you wouldn't want to use those kinds of rules, that's cool. But I would because I think the glitz and glamor make for an interesting part of the SR world and could benefit with some defined crunch.

Shadowbeat also included a solid 16 pages to news gathering rules, from Tests to determine if your PC captured an image with his camera correctly to variables that determined the success of an interview. Again, not something you need to run a game but they were interesting in that it viewed SR at a different angle.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I have to agree. I don't need valuable page count going into rules for music checks. Like Blade said. I don't need rules for playing instruments just like I don't need rules for cooking. Or Rules for sitting on a bus. Much less 22 pages on such things. It's very very very very 'nitch'. And while it can be argued that much of Shadowrun is, you're talking what, 1 char in 1000? More? And even that one char isn't going to be sitting at the table all that often going "ok I'm going to need the rules on "RAISIN" THE ROOF! and ROCKIN' THIS MOTHER FRAKER!! YEAAAAAH" Before we start.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Besides, you could cover all that with the "Tools" Category if you wanted to do so.
Me, I just whip out Shadowbeat and convert the prices and tech. Did not take all that long.
Hell, you could even take a shot at a somewhat coherent set of rules to simulate the Impact tests and such. Though I have not bothered with that as of yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I really need to get Attitude. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Wesley Street]

And even that one char isn't going to be sitting at the table all that often going "ok I'm going to need the rules on "RAISIN" THE ROOF! and ROCKIN' THIS MOTHER FRAKER!! YEAAAAAH" Before we start.

Says you. I'd do it all the time because I'm totally metal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Keep in mind that SR1 spread its rules across pages and pages. The higher word-count-per-page of SR4 could have easily accommodated rockn'-n-rappin' rules if the really bad prose and foot fetishism were axed.

Sigh. I don't even know what anyone would actually do with Attitude. There's nothing in there that I could use to run a campaign based on "attitude" themes. Nothing's perfect but our two most recent dead tree releases have really dropped in quality or even use-ability. Kind of sad that I'm referencing MilSpecTech and Parazoology more than War! and Attitude.

Hell, you could even take a shot at a somewhat coherent set of rules to simulate the Impact tests and such. Though I have not bothered with that as of yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I did. I kludged the rules from Shadowbeat into the 4th ed. engine for an adventure I ran. It worked okay and I don't consider myself to be a game developer by any means. Makes me wonder why the actual developers couldn't be bothered.

[Mäx]

Sigh. I don't even know what anyone would actually do with Attitude. There's nothing in there that I could use to run a campaign based on "attitude" themes. Nothing's perfect but our two most recent dead tree releases have really dropped in quality or even use-ability. Kind of sad that I'm referencing MilSpecTech and Parazoology more than War! and Attitude.

Intresting, i have actually added gear from both WAR and Attitude to one of my character builds, but not from millspectech or this old drone, yet, i fully expect to use stuff from both of those once i get myself to finish up my various rigger builds.

[ravensmuse]

*sigh* Does this mean Attitude 2.0? Because I'm seriously be behind that.

I could write and write this reply over and over again, but I'll just put it simply thus: there was a lot of potential here, and it sounds like they went by the book. And that's really sad. There are a lot of options that could have been presented - filling out fluff, updating us on some old classics, presenting new and optional campaigns.

Instead it sounds like we got yet another rushed out book to make it look like everything is fine at CGL. Really disappointing.

[Mäx]

filling out fluff, updating us on some old classics, presenting new and optional campaigns.

And here i was thinking they did just that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Blade]

And in today's review episode:

- Pirate Media: It's not as much about outlaw medias (pirate trid broadcast) as about "pirating" (making illegal copies) of medias. There's a bit of the former, but it's mixed with the illegal copy angle, making it a bit confusing at times. It starts with some great concept: copyright holders (corps) are the one making copyright laws (at least on their turf). The problem is that I don't know if the writer was afraid of going all the way with this idea (it would, after all, have a big impact on the Shadowrun world by adding a new element that was unheard of) or if he got confused, or if it's just bad writing, but it keeps the concept to vague to really get anywhere with it. And then it falls back into a problem that was already in the Sprawl Survival Guide: taking today's piracy situation and putting it in Shadowrun's timeline with nearly no change.
I think that 80s cyberpunk had a much clearer and more interesting vision of copyright, information control and piracy in the future.

- Celebrity Time: The story of a runner who became famous. A pretty interesting chapter, with some good elements. I like how the Jackpoint comments help pick out the important points. I think it would have been nice to close the chapter on a Jackpoint debate about the content of the story on the whole, though. Also it does feel a bit like a 2011 situation set in 2070. I guess there should be new aspects of celebrity in 2070 (having people who look like you or even think/act like you thanks to personafix for example) but what's shown here isn't very different from today.

I still have a few chapters left, but right now I don't think Attitude is a bad book the way War! was. It's not a great book. I'm waiting for the last chapters to decide if it's an ok good or a good book. Right now I think the biggest problems with this book are:
- Too much transposition of 2011 in 2070. It feels like 2011 with added AR and magic in a lot of places. I can understand that some people don't think that Shadowrun doesn't need to stay in the cyberpunk genre. But this isn't even post-cyberpunk. It's today's world with AR, implants and magic.
- Not enough boldness. This is tied to the previous point, I guess. There's nothing really new, not much that makes you go "I want that !" or "I love that!". I feel like the Sprawl Survival Guide or even the daily life chapter of SR4 introduced more interesting and out of the ordinary daily life elements. "This is a famous rock band whose members are angry at each other.", "It's the same rugby but with trolls and augmented players", "This is a new movie about two people in love with explosions.", "If you want free clothes, search the thrash of the thrift store."... Come on! Give me something original! Where are the bands whose concerts ended in a 3 days long riot or the destruction of a skyscraper? Where are the extreme tv-shows where armed people live in the same loft without knowing who the ghoul is? Where is the memetic manipulation? Where, in a book called Attitude, are the crazy sub-cultures and whacky technotribes?
Maybe there are some surprises left in the chapters I haven't read but so far Attitude isn't bad. It's just dull.

[ravensmuse]

And here i was thinking they did just that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I'll admit that I haven't read the book, but that's as much to what I've heard on here as it is my stance on CGL products.

I could be surprised! Who knows. We'll see.

[Wesley Street]

In CGL's defense (shocking, I know but I want to play fair) Attitude doesn't seem rushed. It's not the orgy of typos, geographic inaccuracies and other easily fixed mistakes that War! was. Bull said they've implemented some changes to prevent that and it's beginning to show. But unlike Attitude, War! has rules (badly written, but they're there) that you can use for a military campaign.

Attitude was solicited as, and attempted to be, the child of Shadowbeat and Sprawl Survival Guide. However, SB and SSG, while mostly fluff, did include usable rules and gear listings that really fleshed out the day-to-day life of the game world. And not just the rock rules that I was harping on earlier.

Like I mentioned above, I don't know what I would actually use Attitude for. The fluff isn't interesting enough or written well enough to just sit down and read straight through, the stuff that should go into details doesn't (newer major bands, complete league listings, etc.), and what does go into detail is kind of weird (socks?). I can pull stuff from the clothes listings but there's nothing in this book that would let me run an "attitude-y" campaign. Attitude went the way of 10 Jackpointers (yes, I'm dogging on something I helped write [see, I'm totally fair! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ]). There was fluff with the promise of crunch that was never delivered.

Pirate Media: It's not as much about outlaw medias (pirate trid broadcast) as about "pirating" (making illegal copies) of medias. There's a bit of the former, but it's mixed with the illegal copy angle, making it a bit confusing at times. It starts with some great concept: copyright holders (corps) are the one making copyright laws (at least on their turf). The problem is that I don't know if the writer was afraid of going all the way with this idea (it would, after all, have a big impact on the Shadowrun world by adding a new element that was unheard of) or if he got confused, or if it's just bad writing, but it keeps the concept to vague to really get anywhere with it. And then it falls back into a problem that was already in the Sprawl Survival Guide: taking today's piracy situation and putting it in Shadowrun's timeline with nearly no change.

As someone with a vested interest in how copyright, intellectual property and public domain actually works, this section really chapped me. You know how the military guys and wannabe military guys on this board get mad about weapon inaccuracies? This is the same for me. The writer posited that the works of Leo Tolstoy (whose works were released to the public domain in the 1880s), could somehow be released in a legal and controlled fashion. When works are released to the public domain there is literally nothing to control. It's out there! What the writer was hinting at is that the major publishing houses like Horizon (we gotta make 'em bad somehow!) literally burned every copy of War & Peace in existence, somehow managed to erase copies from every computer server, and declared, "this is ours, now, and you can't have it without paying!". Not only is that dumb and implausible, it's a complete shift and break from Shadowrun canon. I think I would have heard about this at some point in this game's 20+ year history.

[Blade]

Nothing prevents a government from taking back the works from public domain on its soil. Sure, it won't prevent books that are already out to exist and be sold, but it would impact new sales of the books (especially during the books to ebooks/audiobooks/simplebooks/movie transition).
But yeah, the way it was put forward is awkward. It either goes too far (using Tolstoy instead of a not public-domain writer) or not far enough (giving that example without explaining the whole situation behind it).

[Wesley Street]

Nothing prevents a government from taking back the works from public domain on its soil. Sure, it won't prevent books that are already out to exist and be sold, but it would impact new sales of the books (especially during the books to ebooks/audiobooks/simplebooks/movie transition).

Given the insane overlapping legalities of mega-corporate extraterritoriality and fractured civilian governments that would be an amazing trick to pull off and explain without some serious handwavium and ignoring established canon.

Not using Tolstoy and Kerouac (whose estate has its own legal tie-ups in terms of ownership) would have partly avoided this. But outlawing a book because it's bundled into a package that violates IP would be like outlawing a Prince Paul album that he authorized for free release to Napster in the 1990s. The author of the womanhood manifesto clearly gave consent to the "pirate publisher" (which is sort of a nonsensical term for what was described; the pirate wasn't publishing anything but merely serving as an electronic distribution channel for pre-existing works).