What is Pink Mohawk, Call me stupid but ... and I am serious Options

[CanRay]

Ice Cold and Pink Mohawk can work very well together, especially when it comes to interrogation.

You got a bunch of loud-mouthed, bad-breathed, spoon sharpening freaks talking about all the sick, twisted things they're going to do to the subject, while one guy in a suit, with a set of flats laying neatly folded next to him, just sits quietly and stares. Intently. Unblinking. Hard.

...

Then he calmly and politely asks everyone else to leave, and strips down, putting on the flats. The Pink Mohawks look fearful and sorry to the subject, one actually mutters an apology, and they leave quietly. Maybe one sings a dirge or chants "Dead man, dead man sitting" or some such (Because we are talking Pink Mohawks.).

You better damn well bet that person is going to talk before the Ice Man has his shirt on.

Shadowrunners don't have a "Good Cop". They have a "Bad Cop", "Worse Cop", and "We don't even want know why he wants a dozen Devil Rats, a car battery with jumper cables, a pair of safety scissors, and a Giant Go-Motion Dunkie the Dragon with a Strap-On Dildo which has spikes on it."

[Raven the Tricks...]

Damn... that would be fun, it's a shame the gangers my team is working with on the current run haven't seen either my character or our team chemist/demolitions expert (/hacker) work yet or we could do just that. The HoD gang practically lives pink mohawk, and he and I are about as ice cold as it gets.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ice Cold and Pink Mohawk can work very well together, especially when it comes to interrogation.

You got a bunch of loud-mouthed, bad-breathed, spoon sharpening freaks talking about all the sick, twisted things they're going to do to the subject, while one guy in a suit, with a set of flats laying neatly folded next to him, just sits quietly and stares. Intently. Unblinking. Hard.

...

Then he calmly and politely asks everyone else to leave, and strips down, putting on the flats. The Pink Mohawks look fearful and sorry to the subject, one actually mutters an apology, and they leave quietly. Maybe one sings a dirge or chants "Dead man, dead man sitting" or some such (Because we are talking Pink Mohawks.).

You better damn well bet that person is going to talk before the Ice Man has his shirt on.

Shadowrunners don't have a "Good Cop". They have a "Bad Cop", "Worse Cop", and "We don't even want know why he wants a dozen Devil Rats, a car battery with jumper cables, a pair of safety scissors, and a Giant Go-Motion Dunkie the Dragon with a Strap-On Dildo which has spikes on it."

You really worry me Canray... A Lot... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[CanRay]

One of my friends put it best: "When the Apocalypse happens, I'm hiding behind you."

I'm an overweight computer nerd with no firearms experience or much in the way of any real combat or survival skills. He knows this, and still stands by his statement.

Just a lot of knowledge and a willingness to never say die. Or give up.

And it's only gotten worse in recent years as well...

I worry you. Frag, man, I worry MYSELF. What does that tell you? (Other than the fact that I should get a Pink Mohawk?).

[Belvidere]

You really worry me Canray... A Lot... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Thank you, I'm not alone in my fear.

[X-Kalibur]

He worries people? Man, I get inspiration from half the stuff that spews forth from his brain.

[CanRay]

He worries people? Man, I get inspiration from half the stuff that spews forth from his brain.

Inspiring people can be the scariest thing someone can do.

"The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... Without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not romantic personally he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are."

I had the third-most frightening occupation anyone can have... I was a Librarian.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ice Cold and Pink Mohawk can work very well together, especially when it comes to interrogation.

You got a bunch of loud-mouthed, bad-breathed, spoon sharpening freaks talking about all the sick, twisted things they're going to do to the subject, while one guy in a suit, with a set of flats laying neatly folded next to him, just sits quietly and stares. Intently. Unblinking. Hard.

...

Then he calmly and politely asks everyone else to leave, and strips down, putting on the flats. The Pink Mohawks look fearful and sorry to the subject, one actually mutters an apology, and they leave quietly. Maybe one sings a dirge or chants "Dead man, dead man sitting" or some such (Because we are talking Pink Mohawks.).

You better damn well bet that person is going to talk before the Ice Man has his shirt on.

Shadowrunners don't have a "Good Cop". They have a "Bad Cop", "Worse Cop", and "We don't even want know why he wants a dozen Devil Rats, a car battery with jumper cables, a pair of safety scissors, and a Giant Go-Motion Dunkie the Dragon with a Strap-On Dildo which has spikes on it."

While I get your point on this one.. the groups I'd be with would probably laugh at this sort of display. If you're caught, they're going to kill you or not. Torture you or not. Putting on shows and stuff just prolong it. This sort of action *nods up* Looks staged so it'd have even less effect.

The trick is to "Show' Don't "tell" If you want someone to know you're serious. Skip the theatrics and cut something off.

[CanRay]

Jayne: [studies his face for a second] "Aw, see?" [gets up; disappointed] "They don't know a damn thing. It's all over your face. I ain't even... I was gonna get me a ear, too." - Firefly

Never said that the Ice Cold wasn't going to start cutting. But sometimes it's best if you can break the person without having to resort to such things.

And, remember, most of the time, you're not dealing with "Groups you'd be with", but with amateurs.

Physical torture is supposedly counterproductive anyhow... But I'll let the experts chime in on that. I'm sure we have at least one professional interrogator in Dumpshock. I know one wrote adventures for Deadlands. (Scary bloody adventures as well!).

And you forgot to add into consideration the need for someone to "Read" the subject as well. Sure, it looks like we just broke the manager of a Stuffer Shack, but it turns out he's an Aztechnology Professional as well, and has been trained in the art of espionage and how to fake "Breaking". A Magician with Astral Perception is best...

Another possibility is dealing with secondary psyches. Bunraku Parlors aren't the only places that can benefit from the technology. Rip out that "Calmness 3.8" chip, and you're really ripping out the person you're supposed to be dealing with.

But we're moving away from Pink Mohawk and into Ice Cold Professionals.

[Yerameyahu]

And that's why Pink Mohawk and Ice Cold don't mix. Pink Mohawk is theatrics and no consequences (*not* consequences be damned, then they'd just die defiant), and Ice Cold is 'just be effective'. Both are great, both work, just not together. An Ice Cold in a Pink Mohawk world will be bored and *over*-cautious (wasting time and money on problems that don't exist), while a Pink Mohawk in an Ice Cold world will be arrested/shot instantly.

On a side note, 'just start cutting' is very Pink Mohawk; it's brash, stupid, and dramatic. And careful interrogation through any effective tactic is very Ice Cold. Pink Mohawk doesn't mean 'loud'. It means 'stupid'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) In a good way. It's Leeroy Jenkins and Captain Kirk, leap and never look, Kenny Powers impulsivity. Those crazy mafia thugs in the movies aren't Ice Cold, they're Pink Mohawk (just uncool, alas). Action movie heroes are Pink Mohawk, even if they wear a suit.

[Glyph]

I see Pink Mohawk and Grey Trenchcoat as extreme ends of GMing styles - most campaigns tend to have a bit of both. It depends on how much detail you can put in before it makes the game tedious, rather than adding verisimilitude. I kind of like games in between those two extremes, an action movie style with a bit of noir and dystopia for flavor, but not completely lacking in consequences for stupidity, either.

There are, frankly, a lot of Pink Mohawk options in the game. There are qualities, metatypes, and equipment that simply wouldn't be practical in a cold pro game.

[Yerameyahu]

Of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) No one wants to deal with those literally insane list of (largely metagaming) precautions you see posted sometimes: 1. Radar/sniffer/audio scan for booby traps, 2. Take one step, 3. Return to Step 1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And with zero consequences, it's roleplaying, but no game.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Never said that the Ice Cold wasn't going to start cutting. But sometimes it's best if you can break the person without having to resort to such things.

And, remember, most of the time, you're not dealing with "Groups you'd be with", but with amateurs.

Physical torture is supposedly counterproductive anyhow... But I'll let the experts chime in on that. I'm sure we have at least one professional interrogator in Dumpshock. I know one wrote adventures for Deadlands. (Scary bloody adventures as well!).

And you forgot to add into consideration the need for someone to "Read" the subject as well. Sure, it looks like we just broke the manager of a Stuffer Shack, but it turns out he's an Aztechnology Professional as well, and has been trained in the art of espionage and how to fake "Breaking". A Magician with Astral Perception is best...

Another possibility is dealing with secondary psyches. Bunraku Parlors aren't the only places that can benefit from the technology. Rip out that "Calmness 3.8" chip, and you're really ripping out the person you're supposed to be dealing with.

But we're moving away from Pink Mohawk and into Ice Cold Professionals.

Well that's a bit of a misunderstanding.

"Torture against trained professionals, or for prolonged periods does not yield maximum time/effort to result"

But yeah for your average guy off the street. Torture works DAMN well.

Against a trained Espionage agent or experienced shadowrunner? No. You might as well not try. But those are different situations.

Just like.. cutting off a finger to ear to get a few answers is one thing..but you cut on a guy for 10 or 15 hours he's going to check out and tell you what ever you want to hear to get it to stop.

Torture DOES work. It's just not what you'd call optimal. In any way shape or form.

[CanRay]

Psychological torment is more effective. Break the spirit, and, well, mind follows. Also, sending back the broken shell of a man/woman will send a message pretty strongly too. Everyone has a breaking point for this, it's just a matter of time. Something most people don't have. (And, again, you run into the issue of "They'll say anything to make it stop".).

Surprisingly, Pink Mohawks can be good at this. Shock and Awe is their stock in trade after all.

[Pepsi Jedi]

True, but that method takes 48hours+ to people who train exclusively how to do it for years.

On a run you never have two days to get questions out of someone and very rarely have some place safe enough you can DO it, for 2 days, much less want to stay still for 2 days and let people find you and such.

Does it work, yes. It does. But as you said. it takes time. Far more time than you're going to want to invest. That sort o thing best happens 'off screen'.

Cutting off a finger or ear or pokin' out an eye takes a few seconds and will get you 99% of the answers you need. that other 1% aren't going to break on your schedule. lol

[CanadianWolverin...]

I see a bunch of horse shit.

First off, IRL (and if I was the GM), torture simply does not work for good intel. 1 second or 1 year of it won't make a difference, the victim will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to get you to stop and so it is absolutely unreliable. You really want to get someone to talk? Make them think you are their friend, pass em a drink, find some sort of common ground/interest - that's how they did the nazis who were still alive at the end of WWII and it worked. There is only one reason to torture and it isn't good intel, its being sadistic. Just admit it is to prove you are a bigger psychopath than the other psychos, full stop, that you do it for revenge, retribution, for the hell of it. Anything else you are lying to yourself as bad as the guy you are "interrogating". But hey, this is fiction and if you insist on getting off on torture as entertaining you sick puppy, then have fun imitating 24's Jack Bauer. In the mean time, don't forget the message torture sends to other characters, if that is what they are willing to do to them... Notoriety points and bad karma, here we come. "You tortured the person I loved..." Just like always whacking the guards should bring you some consequences, thinking that torture works is going to give you a "wonderful" reputation right up there with child molesters.

Second bit of horse shit, Pink Mohawk and Ice Cold / Mirror Shade Pros do work together in the same world. Have you read the fiction? Pretty much the majority of the world fell through the cracks when the mega-corps and magic took over, no amount of SR CSI can account for that and the over worked, under paid corp slaves who do their masters bidding when they look into what they decide is a crime that week (you know, whatever they aren't doing and what the other guys are) who do contract work for governments who have had their sources of taxation reduced to next to nil between the majority sinless, slums, corp script, corp citizens, and extra-territory status. Its pretty simple, to the Ice Cold Pro, Pink Mohawks are otherwise known as Distraction runners. While the corp sec has their hands full with the Pink Mohawks, they don't even realize the Ice Cold Pro had really paid them a visit over there. And if the Pink Mohawk suicide squad is still around at the end of the day, that just means they are good enough to serve as a bigger distraction for the next job, worth the other half of the pay you promised them - if not, you get to keep the other half of the pay you promised them. Win-win. Ice Cold Pros love Pink Mohawks, takes so much of the heat off them it might as well be winter white out in Antarctica.

So yeah, on those two points I have to call bullshit. You all need to check yourself before you wreck yourself, IMnsHO.

[nezumi]

Ignoring Canadian above (seeing as we're playing in a game, and buddy-buddy isn't as much fun as bonesaws)...

Interrogation is like sex. It's all about the foreplay.
Find out their kinks and work it.

Regarding pink mohawk/black shades, I've played with both types. They can work together when they're willing to compromise, and when the pink mohawks have patience, while the black shades MOVE now and again. If your group isn't like that (and it generally isn't), it's doomed to failure. When running with a dumb college student and a thirty-year-old network engineer, it's a good idea to ply the engineer with a few beers prior, and keep the student from getting any, and maybe you'll meet somewhere in the middle.

[StealthSigma]

I see a bunch of horse shit.

First off, IRL (and if I was the GM), torture simply does not work for good intel. 1 second or 1 year of it won't make a difference, the victim will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to get you to stop and so it is absolutely unreliable.

That's why you don't start with questions you don't know the answer to. Come on! You start with questions you know the answer to. Interrogation, no matter how you do it, is a controlled process. If it isn't controlled then you can't validate any of the information you're given no matter how you perform it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's why you don't start with questions you don't know the answer to. Come on! You start with questions you know the answer to. Interrogation, no matter how you do it, is a controlled process. If it isn't controlled then you can't validate any of the information you're given no matter how you perform it.

To be fair, Interrogation is different than Torture.

[KarmaInferno]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PETk8eBbfN0#t=2m46s






-k

[Yerameyahu]

Inexplicable tone aside, CanadianWolverine, you basically made my case for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If Pink Mohawks are 'distractions' who 'might survive' while the Ice Cold Pros do the actual job… that means they're not fairly coexisting in the same world. And no, I haven't read any of the fiction; I play Shadowrun.

[Angelone]

Interrogation that works. I think lying to the people who are torturing you is stupid, because what do you think they are going to do when they figured out you lied to them? Probably something worse.

[StealthSigma]

Inexplicable tone aside, CanadianWolverine, you basically made my case for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If Pink Mohawks are 'distractions' who 'might survive' while the Ice Cold Pros do the actual job… that means they're not fairly coexisting in the same world. And no, I haven't read any of the fiction; I play Shadowrun.

They can co-exist. The Ice Cold Pros just charter the Pink Mohawks to cause distractions for them.

[KarmaInferno]

I'm pretty sure Yerameyahu means "working side by side as part of the same coordinated integrated team" when he says "co-existing".

Pink Mohawk Team over THERE blowing stuff up while Ice Cold Team HERE sneaks in during the distraction isn't exactly that.

Anyhow, why would you hire another group of Shadowrunners of any sort merely to cause that sort of distraction? Hiring gangers is a lot cheaper.




-k

[StealthSigma]

I'm pretty sure Yerameyahu means "working side by side as part of the same coordinated integrated team" when he says "co-existing".

Pink Mohawk Team over THERE blowing stuff up while Ice Cold Team HERE sneaks in during the distraction isn't exactly that.

Anyhow, why would you hire another group of Shadowrunners of any sort merely to cause that sort of distraction? Hiring gangers is a lot cheaper.

That's the sort of business arrangement I could see some Ice Cold and Pink Mohawks entering. You're allowed to cause chaos distracting security while we hit the objective. Assuming that a distraction would make the op easier for the Ice Colds.

The advantage of Pink Mohawks over gangers is that they're likely to survive. Pay them well and they'll keep working with you. Plus you're providing fun for them. The gangers are disposable. The Pink Mohawks also provide a constant magnet for attention. you're basically setting up patsies for yourself by having the Mohawks at all of your crime scenes.