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> RPGs are totally useless., Hasn't anyone seen Clear & Present Danger?!
noonesshowmonkey
post Mar 17 2011, 08:45 PM
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So...

Rockets scatter 4d6 meters (-1 meter per net hit), averaging at least 12 meters.

12 hits on a success test with heavy weapons is basically never going to happen without massively pumping a dice pool. And that is bevore comparing the opponent's defense pool, making the total net hits for a direct hit with a rocket something like 15 or 16, easy.

See thread title.

WTF?!

Way to have yet another totally useless rule, SR4A.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 17 2011, 08:51 PM
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Yup. Known issue. Houserule it a little. It should still be tricky to nail something, but not quite that hard.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 17 2011, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey @ Mar 17 2011, 02:45 PM) *
So...

Rockets scatter 4d6 meters (-1 meter per net hit), averaging at least 12 meters.

12 hits on a success test with heavy weapons is basically never going to happen without massively pumping a dice pool. And that is bevore comparing the opponent's defense pool, making the total net hits for a direct hit with a rocket something like 15 or 16, easy.

See thread title.

WTF?!

Way to have yet another totally useless rule, SR4A.


Just use an Airburst Link, reduces Scatter to 2d6, which is not nearly so bad. IF you read the Accessory, it applies to Rockets as well...
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Method
post Mar 17 2011, 09:06 PM
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Didn't somebody come up with a good house rule for this recently? I seem to remember reading something in one of these threads...
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Doc Chase
post Mar 17 2011, 09:10 PM
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I came in here and thought, "What does a Jack Ryan novel have to do with tabletop?"
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noonesshowmonkey
post Mar 17 2011, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 17 2011, 05:03 PM) *
Just use an Airburst Link, reduces Scatter to 2d6, which is not nearly so bad. IF you read the Accessory, it applies to Rockets as well...


Something feels absurdly wrong if I'd have to augment a rocket launcher with something that fancy to make it work. As it stands, everybody would have an interest in a single shot, man portable, disposable dumbfire rocket capable of taking out light armor (just like everyone now does!). And, by RAW, such a weapon simply can't exist - or rather can't be practical enough for any military to actually want to use one...

Even missiles are retardedly hard to hit with. 4d6 - (1 x net hits) - Sensor Rating still produces easy misses even with 5 skill and 5 attribute and a rating 5 sensor suite - ie military grade training and equipment.

Considering that right now Predator drones are making it hard for anyone to get into a car anywhere near Afghanistan and not have their butt pucker a bit, there is something amiss.

I'm gonna noodle on some house rules for this.

Anyone have a rule that they use and have experience with how it works out?
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TheFr0g
post Mar 17 2011, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Mar 17 2011, 10:10 PM) *
I came in here and thought, "What does a Jack Ryan novel have to do with tabletop?"


You're not the only one.
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noonesshowmonkey
post Mar 17 2011, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Mar 17 2011, 05:10 PM) *
I came in here and thought, "What does a Jack Ryan novel have to do with tabletop?"


QUOTE (TheFr0g @ Mar 17 2011, 05:16 PM) *
You're not the only one.


Luckily, I was talking about the movie (operative verb: seen). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Fix-it
post Mar 17 2011, 09:43 PM
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rockets, missiles, and grenades have a blast radius.

direct hits are and should be hard against your average vehicle. they don't happen terribly often in real life, even with trained guys doing the shooting. the shrapnel and blast radius takes care of it.

anti-vehicles are hard to use, because they have a small, focused warhead. frag and HE are easier, because they are area effect.

this ain't Quake. rockets are not pinpoint accurate.

PS: Tom Clancy sucks.
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Critias
post Mar 17 2011, 09:51 PM
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Also, before bemoaning the terrible inaccuracy and all that, remember the size of your target. On most anything worth shooting an RPG at, there's an amount of acceptable scatter that can still result in a direct hit.
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Jhaiisiin
post Mar 17 2011, 09:52 PM
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Yeah, but guided missiles don't generally miss by 20+ meters. Otherwise, why would missiles be used as kill shots on airplanes? Current tech allows us to throw missiles, bombs and other munitions through friggin' windows. That's less than a meter scatter. 20+ is ridiculous.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 17 2011, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (Fix-it @ Mar 17 2011, 03:43 PM) *
rockets, missiles, and grenades have a blast radius.

direct hits are and should be hard against your average vehicle. they don't happen terribly often in real life, even with trained guys doing the shooting. the shrapnel and blast radius takes care of it.

anti-vehicles are hard to use, because they have a small, focused warhead. frag and HE are easier, because they are area effect.

this ain't Quake. rockets are not pinpoint accurate.

PS: Tom Clancy sucks.


Having fired hundreds of A/V Rockets during my time in the Military, I can assure you that it is not as difficult as you are making it out to be. Stationary is EASY PEASY (Especially with a SMAW), if you are good. Moving targets are a bit trickier, which is why you set things up to slow or stop a target before engaging it.

For Rockets with Explosive Warheads like Anti-Personnel and HE, it is even easier. After all, they are more akin to direct fire weapons than most people realize. The Blast Radius does indeed provide a fairly good cushion in the event of a Miss. In real life anyways.

Now, for the Game. The reason that these weapons are not as effective in the game is that thjey would KILL the characters more often than not, most of the time, outright. This is not a lot of fun for the players, so they have been made somewhat less accurate to provide more survivability. No big deal really. It is a sacrifice to make the game more playable and fun, instead of modeling the reality of the situation. After all, how fun is it to have your character driving along and be told " Okay, you see a great big white light... make a new character."
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Fix-it
post Mar 17 2011, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Mar 17 2011, 03:52 PM) *
Yeah, but guided missiles don't generally miss by 20+ meters. Otherwise, why would missiles be used as kill shots on airplanes? Current tech allows us to throw missiles, bombs and other munitions through friggin' windows. That's less than a meter scatter. 20+ is ridiculous.


SAMs targeted at aircraft use fragmentation warheads, which have very large kill zones.

those TV-guided missile vids from the 1st gulf war were the good shots. I guarantee there were a hundred more that didn't go "right through the window". the rules reflect this. it's not impossible to get precision hits with missiles, it's just not going to happen consistently.
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Jhaiisiin
post Mar 17 2011, 10:03 PM
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I didn't say SAM, though I do realize that anything that could be considered flak are designed for general area suppresion, rather than pinpoint targeting. My comment was more aimed at AAM targeting and usage.
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Fix-it
post Mar 17 2011, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 17 2011, 03:57 PM) *
Having fired hundreds of A/V Rockets during my time in the Military, I can assure you that it is not as difficult as you are making it out to be. Stationary is EASY PEASY (Especially with a SMAW), if you are good. Moving targets are a bit trickier, which is why you set things up to slow or stop a target before engaging it.


yes. it would be easy on a range against stationary targets. and by RAW you get a dice bonus for this situation. I would imagine it is significantly different when Bad People Are Trying to Kill You Back. having done neither, this is only supposition.
QUOTE
Now, for the Game. The reason that these weapons are not as effective in the game is that thjey would KILL the characters more often than not, most of the time, outright. This is not a lot of fun for the players, so they have been made somewhat less accurate to provide more survivability. No big deal really. It is a sacrifice to make the game more playable and fun, instead of modeling the reality of the situation. After all, how fun is it to have your character driving along and be told " Okay, you see a great big white light... make a new character."


the rules in the core book are for players.
NPCs should always operate by different rules, to avoid this exact situation.

it is indeed a crappy simulation, my point was it's not nearly as imbalanced as the OP makes it out to be.
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Critias
post Mar 17 2011, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (Fix-it @ Mar 17 2011, 05:05 PM) *
NPCs should always operate by different rules, to avoid this exact situation.

I disagree. Strongly.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 17 2011, 10:33 PM
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What stationary target dice are you getting, exactly?

Let's do it. Smartlinked, image-mag'd, perfect visibility attack on a parked vehicle with a Striker, AV rocket; skill 4, stat 6, so 12 dice? I guess that's 4 net hits. Disclaimer in advance: please point out math errors, I'm just spitballing. (Like I have to *ask* Dumpshockers to point out math errors! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

Scatter is 4d6-1 per net hit (which is the worst of all scatter options). So, you have a ~1/1300 chance of hitting the thing, and you *must* have less scatter than 4m to for the blast to do more than 0 DV. That means your 4d6 must total 7 or less (is that under 3% chance?) to even scratch the paint. Right?

If you use Frag or HE, it certainly does get better: you only have to land it within 16m or 7m (respectively)… except the frag rocket does +5 AP and probably won't hurt an armored vehicle anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) So, you've chosen HE, and you only have to roll a total 11 on 4d6 (24% chance, I think, still assuming 4 hits). Note that this is just to scratch the paint.

And that's against a stationary target, no visibility penalties, no range penalties, no wound penalties, no nothing. I'm not aware of any bonus dice for a stationary target, but even if it's +3 or +6 (which I believe is wholly impossible), that's only getting you 1 or 2m closer.

--
Side note: on the Scatter Table, it says Airburst (2d6-1 per net hit); the actual rules text for Airburst Link (*and* Rockets) says it's 1d6, not 2d6.
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Fix-it
post Mar 17 2011, 11:07 PM
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shit. replied to all these, then browser ate my post.

QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Mar 17 2011, 04:03 PM) *
I didn't say SAM, though I do realize that anything that could be considered flak are designed for general area suppresion, rather than pinpoint targeting. My comment was more aimed at AAM targeting and usage.


so did I. a quick list of AAMs (many of which are dual-purposed as SAMs) lists most having blast or fragmentation warheads.

QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 17 2011, 04:29 PM) *
I disagree. Strongly.


and that's GM Fiat. I play to rule of fun. doesn't mean I don't challenge my players. but I don't do extended construction tests for NPCs to build things or modify equipment.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 17 2011, 04:33 PM) *
What stationary target dice are you getting, exactly?

Let's do it. Smartlinked, image-mag'd, perfect visibility attack on a parked vehicle with a Striker, AV rocket; skill 4, stat 6, so 12 dice? I guess that's 4 net hits. Disclaimer in advance: please point out math errors, I'm just spitballing. (Like I have to *ask* Dumpshockers to point out math errors! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

Scatter is 4d6-1 per net hit (which is the worst of all scatter options). So, you have a ~1/1300 chance of hitting the thing, and you *must* have less scatter than 4m to for the blast to do more than 0 DV. That means your 4d6 must total 7 or less (is that under 3% chance?) to even scratch the paint. Right?

If you use Frag or HE, it certainly does get better: you only have to land it within 16m or 7m (respectively)… except the frag rocket does +5 AP and probably won't hurt an armored vehicle anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) So, you've chosen HE, and you only have to roll a total 11 on 4d6 (24% chance, I think, still assuming 4 hits). Note that this is just to scratch the paint.

And that's against a stationary target, no visibility penalties, no range penalties, no wound penalties, no nothing. I'm not aware of any bonus dice for a stationary target, but even if it's +3 or +6 (which I believe is wholly impossible), that's only getting you 1 or 2m closer.

--
Side note: on the Scatter Table, it says Airburst (2d6-1 per net hit); the actual rules text for Airburst Link (*and* Rockets) says it's 1d6, not 2d6.


standing on a gunnery range, you can do "Take Aim" actions equal to your weapons skill / 2 rounded down. also, edge and the rule of 6 improve your chances significantly, both on the range and on the street. I apologize for the "Stationary target bonus", can't seem to find it in SR4A. must have been a previous edition, different game or bad memory.

I don't like doing statistics on RPG systems because of the random nature of dice. sometimes you get snake eyes, sometimes boxcars.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 17 2011, 11:13 PM
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Sometimes, yes, but *most* of the times… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) That's why doing statistics on RPG systems is effective (vastly more so than on real life, in fact).

So, extended Take Aim (often unreasonable) will get you as many as 1m closer to your target. For AV rockets, that *is* a big deal. And yes, if you invested in Edge, some Edge *might* help you, but that's hardly a fair factor in a 'typical shot'.

Other than these details, is my sketch wrong? With very respectable 6 Agility and 4 Heavy Weapons, you probably can't even scratch the paint on a *stationary* target in ideal conditions. As someone pointed out, the Airburst Link is an utter necessity (depending on which part of the book is right, removing 1/2 or 3/4 of the scatter). That'll cost you an extra 500¥, but luckily all rockets and grenades can interface with it for free.

With the Airburst, things are basically fine. Probably *too* fine; you'll rarely miss a direct hit, I think? *shrug* Probably best to go with the 2d6, even though it says 1d6 on p322 *and* p325.
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Mäx
post Mar 17 2011, 11:16 PM
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QUOTE (Fix-it @ Mar 18 2011, 01:07 AM) *
also, edge and the rule of 6 improve your chances significantly

Because needing to use edge to hit a stationary target with RPG under perfect conditios totally makes sense, right?

Oh, wait no it doesn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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Fix-it
post Mar 17 2011, 11:46 PM
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if it's really important that you hit that vehicle, I would say it's perfectly reasonable to use edge.
you're not going to consistently take out armored vehicles with an cheapass RPG even under ideal circumstances. it takes luck and skill. the rules reflect it. this is my opinion. if you don't like it, feel free to houserule. otherwise, stop being a tightwad and spend 500 on the airburst link. it's not like you can't reuse it.


just also noticed that ammo type for the Striker is listed as missile, not rocket. that's weird. and ambiguous
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 17 2011, 11:52 PM
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Indeed, I pointed out that the airburst eliminates the problem for a low cost. That was never the question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The question is, 'are these rules completely broken… unless you avoid them by using an accessory that's 100% necessary?'. Hehe. Tymeaus pointed that out in the second thread response.

By the same token, it's wholly obvious that you can houserule anything; if you read the very first response in this thread, you'll see me suggesting that. We're just discussing the need to do so.

It's not about "consistently". AFAIK, my math demonstrates that you have no reasonable expectation of, again, *even scratching the paint* in ludicrously ideal conditions. That's not even close to, 'hey, this takes luck and skill'.

Missiles are just rockets with a couple thousand Nuyen worth of sensors and guidance. AFAIK, they're interchangeable in basically all launchers.
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Garvel
post Mar 17 2011, 11:58 PM
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This is our houserule for blast weapons. It is pretty easy in the game, but now I find it hard to write it down. Still I will try to expain it as simple as possible. The rule applies for rockets and grenades that explode on impact (not delayed ones).
The rule is similar to the opposed test in normal ranged combat, but instead of being able to dogde complety, net hits of the target bring it farther away from the center of the explosion. This way dodging will reduce the damage that reaches the target (before the normal damage resistance test is rolled).

-We use the old scatter table from SR4.

-The attacker picks one primary target or a spot where the rocket/grenade should land.

-The attacker rolls a normal range-combat-test and the scatter dice.

-The attacker compares his hits and the scatter-roll, to find out where the rocket/grenade lands. (If the attacker has net-hits beyond neutralising the scatter, note this net-hits.)

-All targets in the blast radius roll a normal range-combat defense-test (with the -2 dice modifier for area weapons). For every hit they count as being 1 additional meter away from the blast center. (If the attacker had net-hits, this net-hits are subtracted from the hits in the targets defense rolls, like it would be in an opposed test.)

-Only for the primary target applies: If the attacker has still net-hits left, after subtracting the scatter and the defence hits of the target, this left net-hits increase the damage like the would in a normal attack.
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Fix-it
post Mar 18 2011, 12:02 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 17 2011, 05:52 PM) *
Indeed, I pointed out that the airburst eliminates the problem for a low cost. That was never the question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The question is, 'are these rules completely broken… unless you avoid them by using an accessory that's 100% necessary?'.


very well. my answer: No.

long answer: No, not any more broken than the rest of the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

QUOTE
Hehe. Tymeaus pointed that out in the second thread response.

By the same token, it's wholly obvious that you can houserule anything; if you read the very first response in this thread, you'll see me suggesting that. We're just discussing the need to do so.

It's not about "consistently". AFAIK, my math demonstrates that you have no reasonable expectation of, again, *even scratching the paint* in ludicrously ideal conditions. That's not even close to, 'hey, this takes luck and skill'.


my apologies. depends on how gritty your campaign is then. although I would like some errata on scatter. if airburst link is actually 1d6. is the original supposed to be 3d6?
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Mäx
post Mar 18 2011, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE (Fix-it @ Mar 18 2011, 02:02 AM) *
if airburst link is actually 1d6. is the original supposed to be 3d6?

1d6 is the orignal 4:th edition scatter for airburst link.
They most likely just forgot to update link description when they upped the scatter in the Anniversary edition
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