In case you missed it Options

[Warlordtheft]

And the #1 reason the Indians would fail in the great ghost dance in the SR timeline:

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=OQnU1t7UzgM

God bless the USA, praise the lord and pass the ammo--(to paraphrase an old quote).

[Pepsi Jedi]

You do realize that they could own each and every one of those themselves... right? It wasn't the 'White boy" gun shoot..... any gun WE can buy.. THEY can buy...

[Epicedion]

What in the hell are you talking about?

[Laodicea]

assuming that Warlordtheft is actually the dumb fucking republican racist ass red neck he's trying to portray in this thread, I'm amazed that he made it through an entire Shadowrun Core rulebook or figured out how to register for these forums. Congratulations on living the american dream by rising above your birth status.

[CanRay]

I want to try the Vickers, and the Ma-Deuce. In that order. And a Bren in honor of my Great Uncle.

*Sighs* Probably never going to happen.

[Socinus]

I want to try the Vickers, and the Ma-Deuce. In that order. And a Bren in honor of my Great Uncle.

*Sighs* Probably never going to happen.

I respect American made as far as the Thompson and 1911, but the finest firearm ever crafted by the hand of man, give me an Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947.

If I ever fight a war, that is the weapon I'm reaching for.

A Russian (Not Czech, not Ukrainian, not Chinese) AK-47 and a Colt 1911 is all I'll need.

[CanadianWolverin...]

assuming that Warlordtheft is actually the dumb fucking republican racist ass red neck he's trying to portray in this thread, I'm amazed that he made it through an entire Shadowrun Core rulebook or figured out how to register for these forums. Congratulations on living the american dream by rising above your birth status.

This post, so full of win.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

Besides, magic and their spirit buddies wants a word with you Warlordtheft. RL and SR parted ways ages ago and only have a passing similarity at best, rest assured you could probably still find like minded individuals in a policlub though, that hasn't changed. You can plot the taking back your heritage from those damn savages who stole your beloved motherland from "Ares" in SR 2072+ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[KCKitsune]

@Laodicea: Just because someone is a Republican doesn't make them evil. So Laodicea I would like an apology for your insulting remarks.

@CanadianWolverine: No, the native americans would not have won. Yes, they might have hit the US hard, they could not have held the territory, but unless EVERY SINGLE indian was a "Magic Brave", they didn't have the firepower to win.

No, FASA applied a great deal of handwavium to make the Balkanized world of Shadowrun. Like I said before, FASA got out the Big Book of Stereotypes, paged from front to back and then said: "Yes, this is the world of Shadowrun." I love the game system. The fluff... not so much.

This has been gone over in great detail in other threads. There is no reason to do so again.

[Redjack]

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

....

4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any inappropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

The Terms of Service are quite clear. This partisan trash talk and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

[Warlordtheft]

I want to try the Vickers, and the Ma-Deuce. In that order. And a Bren in honor of my Great Uncle.

*Sighs* Probably never going to happen.

There's nothing stopping you from going south on a trip to OK to try one out. Not sure what the cost of rent and ammo would be (a thousand rounds would be expensive).


@Laodicea & CanadianWolverine: You have no idea who I am, or what my beliefs are--and read too much into my post to boot. I'd say more, but I'd violate TOS..

[Warlordtheft]

A Russian (Not Czech, not Ukrainian, not Chinese) AK-47 and a Colt 1911 is all I'll need.

I'd like to know what that full auto pistol was (with the huge magazine)...I'm thinking it is a Glock.

[Warlordtheft]

You do realize that they could own each and every one of those themselves... right? It wasn't the 'White boy" gun shoot..... any gun WE can buy.. THEY can buy...

Actually for class III firearms (Full auto) the FBI does a background check. So probably not possible during the events leading up to the Great Ghost Dance. They would have to get them from other than legal means. Most likely the same source that narco-terrorists gets them from.


The only other explanation (sort of hinted at in Shadows of North America) was that many of the non-indian residents in those states supported the indians due to the immorality of the US actions during the great ghost dance, or the promise of being free of federal interference and water rights. Most of these had little or next to no relation with Indian blood but after the nations were founded and needing some semblence of population, most of the NAN made qualifying for tribal membership a pretty lax affair (yes my 2nd cousin twice removed is 1/10th Lakota and I qualify for NAN citizenship).

PS:Yes there was a long thread on this a while back...forget the the title of it, maybe someone more inclined can link to it.

[CanRay]

Also, I remember some Shadowtalk about an old Soldier that had to deal with Well-Equipped Indians with Ma-Deuces galore and all the ammo they could want.

[Fix-it]

I respect American made as far as the Thompson and 1911, but the finest firearm ever crafted by the hand of man, give me an Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947.

If I ever fight a war, that is the weapon I'm reaching for.

A Russian (Not Czech, not Ukrainian, not Chinese) AK-47 and a Colt 1911 is all I'll need.

CJ Chiver's "The Gun" is an excellent book on the roots of the AK, and the culture that created it. btw, you probably want an AKM, which was made in 1959, and eliminated some problems the original model had.

[redwulf25]

@CanadianWolverine: No, the native americans would not have won. Yes, they might have hit the US hard, they could not have held the territory, but unless EVERY SINGLE indian was a "Magic Brave", they didn't have the firepower to win.

Enough of them were "magic braves" as you put it that their firepower included such things as volcanoes and lightning strikes.

[CanadianWolverin...]

There's nothing stopping you from going south on a trip to OK to try one out. Not sure what the cost of rent and ammo would be (a thousand rounds would be expensive).


@Laodicea & CanadianWolverine: You have no idea who I am, or what my beliefs are--and read too much into my post to boot. I'd say more, but I'd violate TOS..

You are correct, I don't know what your beliefs are other than the ones you care to share. I wasn't thinking of how it possibly unjustly maligned your reputation on these forums, only that I liked the cut of his jib, the rant had prose I enjoyed and a stance against a particular meme I could get behind.

Actually for class III firearms (Full auto) the FBI does a background check. So probably not possible during the events leading up to the Great Ghost Dance. They would have to get them from other than legal means. Most likely the same source that narco-terrorists gets them from.


The only other explanation (sort of hinted at in Shadows of North America) was that many of the non-indian residents in those states supported the indians due to the immorality of the US actions during the great ghost dance, or the promise of being free of federal interference and water rights. Most of these had little or next to no relation with Indian blood but after the nations were founded and needing some semblence of population, most of the NAN made qualifying for tribal membership a pretty lax affair (yes my 2nd cousin twice removed is 1/10th Lakota and I qualify for NAN citizenship).

PS:Yes there was a long thread on this a while back...forget the the title of it, maybe someone more inclined can link to it.

Glad you pointed that out, at least on that we can see eye to eye that. I would like to get into this subject more, its a topic that pretty much is the reason I took an interest in SR in the first place and set it apart from the rest of the P&P pack, but I gotta roll. I hope I can revisit this later.

[Angelone]

I'd use a punt gun.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'd like to know what that full auto pistol was (with the huge magazine)...I'm thinking it is a Glock.

Glock 18.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Actually for class III firearms (Full auto) the FBI does a background check. So probably not possible during the events leading up to the Great Ghost Dance. They would have to get them from other than legal means. Most likely the same source that narco-terrorists gets them from.


The only other explanation (sort of hinted at in Shadows of North America) was that many of the non-indian residents in those states supported the indians due to the immorality of the US actions during the great ghost dance, or the promise of being free of federal interference and water rights. Most of these had little or next to no relation with Indian blood but after the nations were founded and needing some semblence of population, most of the NAN made qualifying for tribal membership a pretty lax affair (yes my 2nd cousin twice removed is 1/10th Lakota and I qualify for NAN citizenship).

PS:Yes there was a long thread on this a while back...forget the the title of it, maybe someone more inclined can link to it.

That only works if you assume the NA only went out to buy their machine guns when they were ready to go to war and didn't stock up for decades before hand. Or.. you know. Knew anyone that sold them. lol It's not like they decided to go to war on Thursday, then on Friday there's long lines at the Gun-mart. lol presumably they built up their arsonels the same way anyone else does. A few at a time.

[Warlordtheft]

That only works if you assume the NA only went out to buy their machine guns when they were ready to go to war and didn't stock up for decades before hand. Or.. you know. Knew anyone that sold them. lol It's not like they decided to go to war on Thursday, then on Friday there's long lines at the Gun-mart. lol presumably they built up their arsonels the same way anyone else does. A few at a time.

Also, they probably raided a few national guard armories as well.

[Sengir]

Procuring small arms for your little rebellion typically is no big issue.

9/11 never happened is SR canon, so the SAIM could just call Libya and tell them they want to fight the imperialist Yankee pigs. The chaos of the post-Soviet years and Balkan wars AFAIK are canonical, plus the Eurowars, the bottom line is a shitload of military weapons on the market.

[Nath]

9/11 never happened is SR canon, so the SAIM could just call Libya and tell them they want to fight the imperialist Yankee pigs. The chaos of the post-Soviet years and Balkan wars AFAIK are canonical, plus the Eurowars, the bottom line is a shitload of military weapons on the market.

In SR canon, Libya launched some chemical weapons at Israel in 2004, and got a few nukes back in exchange (IRL, it was the year Libya officially dismantled its chemical arsenal). But I guess you could try Venezuela instead or wherever. Eurowars, on the other hand, started much later, in 2030.

[KCKitsune]

Enough of them were "magic braves" as you put it that their firepower included such things as volcanoes and lightning strikes.

Yeah, but the US military knew enough that these Indians were doing some REALLY wacky crap. One MOAB or FAE would have done them in. When they bounced that, then they would have used a nuke* (or two). I would LOVE to see the rules explaining how to survive a 80 kiloton nuke.

* == I know FASA had to get rid of nukes because they would stop their little balkanized world building.

Honestly Redwulf, the whole Magic Brave thing is the DUMBEST thing in Shadowrun. Next dumbest thing is Corporations being allowed that much power.

Can you really believe that Politicians would give up ANY power? I mean really lets look at the mess in Washington. A judge tells the FCC that Net Neutrality is illegal, and what does the FCC do, it made the internet a utility. This is the type of government that would allow Corporations to be extra-territorial? Really? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Pepsi Jedi]

No.. I think your proposal to use "A NUKE OR TWO" On US Soil against US citizens has to rank up there with one of the dumbest things I've heard for shadowrun.

These people weren't moving as massed armys. To "Nuke" them you'd have to nuke US Cities... your own people... deploy nuclear weapons on our own soil.. against (( at the time)) A small terrorist population hidden among your own people.

That's just dumb.

As for the Military, you forget this was before magic had really come out.

"Oh the Indians are doing a pow wow dance"
"Yeah? they in those cool costumes with the feathers an' shit?"
"NUKE UM!!! NUKE UM ALLLL!!!!!""

Dude.. really? *Shakes head* Think about it..


When the Ghost dance happened and the NA's proved they could explode numerous volcanoes all at the same time it was impressive. (( Don't think so? look what one earth quake and tsunami did to Japan)), It scared the crap out of the world because no one had any earthly idea how to fight against that. They did send some military against the NA's escaping, If I remember right jets rolled out once and the Native American's whipped up tornados to swat them out of the sky.

How does a conventional military, who just lost a flight of billion dollar jets to INSTANTLY SUMMONED Tornados fight that enemy hidden among it's own people?

You're seriously ignoring the setting.

Are there plot holes in shadowrun? Sure. big ones.

But "NUKE THE US CITIZENS TO GET THEM PESKY INDIANS" is dumb.

[CanRay]

Also, they're some of the first "Military" groups to incorporate magic into a combat unit. Remember, this was before the days of "Geek the Mage First". Soldiers really had no idea on how to deal with things like Spirits and Spells.

Fine, nuke them... Where are they? Spread out all over the Midwest (Breadbasket States) for the most part. Oh, look, prevailing winds will blow that fallout into the East Coast and/or West Coast. Yeah, not cool. Even worse, it's going to Canada and Mexico... Internal strife just turned into an International Incident.