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CanRay
post Mar 21 2011, 05:24 AM
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*Checks my Stock Portfolio*

Actually...
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Pepsi Jedi
post Mar 21 2011, 05:32 AM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 21 2011, 01:22 AM) *
Has an argument/discussion about the probability of a successful NAN takeover of the continental United States/Canada ever gone well, people? Really? Some folks get so up in arms about it, thread after thread, it might as well be about dikoting your ally spirit.

Either you take your suspension-of-disbelief pill and you just accept Shadowrun's a zany work of fiction built on zany fictional premises in some vaguely-like-ours Earth, or you don't. The numbers have all been crunched before, the amateur experts on guerrilla warfare have all chimed in before, folks have expressed either pride or outrage at the Magical Brave stereotype before, VITAS has been mentioned before, and on and on and on, and they invariable end in bitterness, mod warnings, and/or a thread lock.

It's not history, it's Shadowrun. Was it goofy as all hell? You bet'cha. But it's there, it's canon, and the splintering of the United States (and the way in which they splintered) isn't going away any time soon because it's a cornerstone of the metaplot and has been for twenty-two years now.

Bickering over it doesn't do anyone any good, unless you've got stock in whatever company sells blood pressure medication to the moderators.


Very true.
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nezumi
post Mar 21 2011, 01:14 PM
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It would be interesting to 'reimage' Shadowrun's history to suggest that most of what preceded and followed the GGD was a common man's revolution, primarily by normal, white guys with guns (the same ones in that video) against a perceived ineffective and oppressive government in DC. But since the Amerindians brought out the GGD and provided a few key charges, and because no one in DC wanted to believe that American Citizens were capable of turning against their own government, the entire thing was put under a PR lockdown and the Amerindians were solely 'blamed' for the war.

I'm starting to imagine Colorado as well, Colorado, where a man can own a few hundred acres and take care of it as he sees fit. The only difference is now he proudly describes he's legally-bestowed 'Amerindian lineage' for his meritous service at the Battle of Witchita.
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Sengir
post Mar 21 2011, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 21 2011, 12:39 AM) *
I thought the party line was that Winternight tampered with them somehow to get a bigger emp out of the bang.

The EMP nukes were only one half of the plan. WN also had some seriously big nukes placed in tectonic fault lines, because the Ragnarök myth requires the world to burn. A few of these warheads went off, but had far less effect than everyone expected.
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CanadianWolverin...
post Mar 21 2011, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 20 2011, 10:17 PM) *
Maybe it's late or something.. but Canadian.. your post..... is... .weird man... I think I can tell what you're trying to say but ... wow man.


Heh, thanks ... I think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) In the shadows, being weird is a compliment I hope but my charisma attribute does take a hit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

LOL, Canray. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) Yeah, them blond/brunette, blue/green eyed, fair skinned AmerInds, they could be anywhere ... heh, why do you think the elves were a part of NAN (at the start)?

And Critias wins! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) Again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 21 2011, 06:14 AM) *
It would be interesting to 'reimage' Shadowrun's history to suggest that most of what preceded and followed the GGD was a common man's revolution, primarily by normal, white guys with guns (the same ones in that video) against a perceived ineffective and oppressive government in DC. But since the Amerindians brought out the GGD and provided a few key charges, and because no one in DC wanted to believe that American Citizens were capable of turning against their own government, the entire thing was put under a PR lockdown and the Amerindians were solely 'blamed' for the war.

I'm starting to imagine Colorado as well, Colorado, where a man can own a few hundred acres and take care of it as he sees fit. The only difference is now he proudly describes he's legally-bestowed 'Amerindian lineage' for his meritous service at the Battle of Witchita.


That is pretty much how I picture it going down in many parts of Canada, especially BC. Somehow, I don't think Canadians would necessarily still consider themselves as such after some of the events that go down. The books don't fill in all the details and even then, the details have doubt cast upon them by SR's many, many troubled times and shadow truths (see: conspiracy theories and dystopia societies). Hey, when you have food riots already going down, that's gotta be an indicator of some seriously troubled times for the UCAS then, the kind of stuff rebellions are born from.
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Nath
post Mar 21 2011, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 21 2011, 02:14 PM) *
It would be interesting to 'reimage' Shadowrun's history to suggest that most of what preceded and followed the GGD was a common man's revolution, primarily by normal, white guys with guns (the same ones in that video) against a perceived ineffective and oppressive government in DC. But since the Amerindians brought out the GGD and provided a few key charges, and because no one in DC wanted to believe that American Citizens were capable of turning against their own government, the entire thing was put under a PR lockdown and the Amerindians were solely 'blamed' for the war.
I guess quite a few white men may feel concerned when the Federal government start sending members of the local tribe into internment camps. And that really should start to itch when the reservation school teacher, the local gunsmith and your neighbor Bob got arrested for allegedly supporting the insurgents.

Canon-wise, a lot if not the majority of Mormons sided with the SAIM. According to the Book of Mormon, the Amerindians will seek redemption when Jesus Christ will return. And that cannot happen if the Federal government kill them all first.
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SecGuard
post Mar 21 2011, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (Fix-it @ Mar 19 2011, 03:40 PM) *
CJ Chiver's "The Gun" is an excellent book on the roots of the AK, and the culture that created it. btw, you probably want an AKM, which was made in 1959, and eliminated some problems the original model had.


Agree with the AKM but go with either the East German or Polish version or failing that the Finish Valmet or Israeli Galil are good options as well.
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Abstruse
post Mar 21 2011, 10:23 PM
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Any of you guys ever read Awakenings? Specifically the chapter "The Astral Advantage"? The entire point is that no one really knew ANYTHING about how magic worked for decades after the Awakening. Everyone knew magic was real, but no one knew what it could and couldn't do. There was more disinformation than information. Outside the dragons, the IEs, and a few others; everyone was clueless and piecing together what they could from what little information they had (and the IEs and dragons are STILL laughing at how primitive human use of magic is up to the mid-2060s). So let's go back from a 2050-2070 perspective and go back to 2017. A dragon popped out of a mountain just five years before. Babies were popping up with pointy ears and HUGE shoulders seemingly at random (and if you were an expected mother and had a choice, which would you hope for between the two? Ouch!). No one has a CLUE what's going on.

And then a bunch of Indians do a little dance and suddenly FOUR FRIGGIN' VOLCANOES ERUPT.

That was the magnitude of dropping a single bomb that leveled an entire city in 1945. It immediately ended a war when the US did that, and it immediately ended a war when the Indians did the dance. Everything after that was just deciding where the new borders would be drawn. Oh, and before the ink was dry on that treaty and anyone could throw a "USA! USA! USA!" hissy fit about it? People randomly (and painfully) grow tusks, horns, 50-200 lbs of muscle and 6" to four feet in height. And then a plague hits that kills a sixth of the world's population. One sixth. A billion people, dead. Oh, and before that crisis even comes close to being resolved, the information structure of the entire planet collapses.

And I know I'm one of the few who like all the IE stuff in early Shadowrun, but they were a massive factor in the establishment of the NAN as well. They supported the NAN in their war, they formed their own tribe, then they created Tir Tairngire. They had the magical knowledge, the money, and the political influence to pull it off combined with the pure manpower the various tribes had.

The American army is slow to adapt and typically approaches each conflict their in the exact same way they did previous conflicts until they realize that won't work and they finally try something else. Happened in Vietnam (they approached it like Korea and screwed up). Almost happened in the first Gulf War (if Hussein had invaded ANY other country than Kuwait, our ships wouldn't have gotten close enough) and even then we had problems as our fighter jets suffered from as much as a 50% loss in combat effectiveness due to the heat and lack of humidity in the desert climate. Happened in Iraq and Afghanistan when we bombed the hell out of everything and the resistance responded with "Oh noes! You bombed all the places the Soviets spent the last two decades bombing!" and "Oh noes! My hovel and goat!" Then we started using small unit tactics and making alliances with supportive local groups and we're making progress. Since Desert Storm was the last big US military conflict in the Shadowrun world, they would've approached the Indian rebellion the same way they approached the Cold War skirmishes and Desert Storm - bomb the hell out of everything. And the Indians would've done exactly what the Afghan and Iraqi insurgents are doing against us right now, and before the US had a chance to adjust their strategy, they make FOUR FRIGGIN' VOLANOES ERUPT. Checkmate.

So yeah...it's actually pretty plausible even with all the big boomsticks we've created. To paraphrase a shadowtalker from Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, "Great, now you can flatten machine gun ammo against magical shields faster than ever!"
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CanRay
post Mar 21 2011, 10:51 PM
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QUOTE (SecGuard @ Mar 21 2011, 03:40 PM) *
Agree with the AKM but go with either the East German or Polish version or failing that the Finish Valmet or Israeli Galil are good options as well.

Israelis make good weapons. The Galil "suffers" from a unique magazine, however. There is an adapter for STANAG Magazines. It's not just commonality of ammo you have to worry about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Sparrowhawk
post Mar 22 2011, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Mar 18 2011, 09:02 PM) *
And the #1 reason the Indians would fail in the great ghost dance in the SR timeline:


Personal pet peeve: Indians are from India.

Native American, Amerindian, or just referring to the person's specific tribe all work.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Mar 22 2011, 06:52 PM
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One of my pet peeves is people that are peevish over the use of the term Indian. It's silly. The difference between Amerindian and "Indian" when speaking of the same ethnic types is just one of political correctness.

If you're over the age of 16 in the US and you grew up calling them "indians" It's not like you're being racist.

I don't make Native American's call me a Euro American. or a Scotts-American. They call me white. At best 'caucasian'. It's not like "The "n" word" or something. It wasn't used to oppress people. If you say "indian" and someone goes 'Dot or feather" they find out which Indians you're talking about.

I grew up in NC. with a bunch of Indians. I DO tend to use Native American alot but not because I have to. I've used Indian just as much.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Mar 22 2011, 07:01 PM
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Also, depending on the native country of the speaker, he might not even know there is some "witch-hunt" about people that use the word indians for "feather indians".

In portuguese we have two words: "índios" refering to native americans and "indianos" refering to people born in India. But english uses the same word for both. I've grew used in calling them Native Americans, but some times, is just shorter saying or writing indians.

Just a "the more you know" moment...
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CanRay
post Mar 22 2011, 07:48 PM
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Actually, there's a major argument over usage of the term "First Nations" and "Indian" in Canada, but that's due to politics and literal nature that the "Indian and Northern Affairs Canada" can have at times.

Personally, I'd be happy if we had a Minister of Indian Affairs be, you know, an INDIAN for once. Just a thought.
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SecGuard
post Mar 22 2011, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 21 2011, 10:51 PM) *
Israelis make good weapons. The Galil "suffers" from a unique magazine, however. There is an adapter for STANAG Magazines. It's not just commonality of ammo you have to worry about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)



Yeah but i figure as he's looking at an AK anyway he's not bothered about STANAG.
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CanRay
post Mar 22 2011, 08:34 PM
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Then the Galil is a bad choice, despite being based off the AK-design.
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Sparrowhawk
post Mar 22 2011, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 22 2011, 01:52 PM) *
The difference between Amerindian and "Indian" when speaking of the same ethnic types is just one of political correctness.


It's a matter of correctness, not one of social delicateness. Indians are from India. It's not racist to call Native Americans "Indians". But it is a misnomer.

For that matter, "Caucasian" isn't terribly accurate either. I have no Russian ancestry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
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CanadianWolverin...
post Mar 22 2011, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 22 2011, 12:48 PM) *
Actually, there's a major argument over usage of the term "First Nations" and "Indian" in Canada, but that's due to politics and literal nature that the "Indian and Northern Affairs Canada" can have at times.

Personally, I'd be happy if we had a Minister of Indian Affairs be, you know, an INDIAN for once. Just a thought.


Ugh, tell me about it. Oh well, luckily the place I live (heh, wrote love for a second there but that is accurate as well) will soon no longer be conducting itself to the auspices of Indian Act, we're just a few days away from the implementation date of their ratified treaty, so who is the Minister of INAC won't be as much of a concern soon.

Oh and FYI on the possible labels, aboriginals gets bandied about at times too. I am fine with using FN or the different groups/tribes names, it is what they use around me. Plus they are trying to get away from calling their home(s) The Rez now too in some places.

Please tell me again how the label "indian" isn't something that was used to degrade the various tribes like the word nigger again, I need a good laugh. In a weird way, the racist myth the rich perpetrated on poor in the colonies that became the US was not unlike what was done to bring the various tribes/nations that became Germany. "indians" and "niggers" saw themselves as different peoples before the myth of the "white" person was trotted out, you know, when we were this tribe or that when we first started getting tossed out of or desperately left where we originally came from to seek riches to send back to motherland Britain, Spain, Portugal, France, or Dutch...

The history of that word is actually one of the things that makes me think there is room for the member states in SR NAN to end up breaking apart the NAN and having say, another conflict like the Tsimshian vs the Salish-Shidhe Council again or perhaps civil wars. Its not like these different nations didn't go to war with each other in the past. Kinda interesting that the more racist policy driven NAN member states became failed states, like what happened to the Ute Nation, eh?
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CanRay
post Mar 22 2011, 09:49 PM
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The more racist you are, the heavier the "Brain Drain" can be when you start kicking everyone else out.
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Redjack
post Mar 22 2011, 09:57 PM
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Since Dumpshock doesn't have an off topic area and to keep us from digressing into the personal attacks previously displayed, we would appreciate it if this topic was driven back to Shadowrun related conversations.
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CanRay
post Mar 22 2011, 09:58 PM
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How about them Mariners/Seadogs?
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Pepsi Jedi
post Mar 22 2011, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Mar 22 2011, 04:38 PM) *
Ugh, tell me about it. Oh well, luckily the place I live (heh, wrote love for a second there but that is accurate as well) will soon no longer be conducting itself to the auspices of Indian Act, we're just a few days away from the implementation date of their ratified treaty, so who is the Minister of INAC won't be as much of a concern soon.

Oh and FYI on the possible labels, aboriginals gets bandied about at times too. I am fine with using FN or the different groups/tribes names, it is what they use around me. Plus they are trying to get away from calling their home(s) The Rez now too in some places.

Please tell me again how the label "indian" isn't something that was used to degrade the various tribes like the word nigger again, I need a good laugh. In a weird way, the racist myth the rich perpetrated on poor in the colonies that became the US was not unlike what was done to bring the various tribes/nations that became Germany. "indians" and "niggers" saw themselves as different peoples before the myth of the "white" person was trotted out, you know, when we were this tribe or that when we first started getting tossed out of or desperately left where we originally came from to seek riches to send back to motherland Britain, Spain, Portugal, France, or Dutch...

The history of that word is actually one of the things that makes me think there is room for the member states in SR NAN to end up breaking apart the NAN and having say, another conflict like the Tsimshian vs the Salish-Shidhe Council again or perhaps civil wars. Its not like these different nations didn't go to war with each other in the past. Kinda interesting that the more racist policy driven NAN member states became failed states, like what happened to the Ute Nation, eh?


Again CanadianWolv. Your post is wandering and seems to turn in on itself. I'm left wondering what point you're trying to make. Wading through the confusion i'm going to take a stab at it.

As for the word "indian" no it's not like the other word that you're banding about. I grew up with a pretty large number of them. Never once in 23 years I lived in NC did anyone ever get offended by the term. Those whom I knew what tribe, I might call them Cherokee or something but it's not the same thing. Trying to make it so is just more PC bull. I've never used it to degrade people. Nor is it used so commonly. Unlike the other word you're banding about.

People need to chill out. If they ARE an Indian, and want me to call THEM SPECIFICALLY by their personal tribal name (( none of which are 'Indian' OR "Amerindian" so one's as good as the other)) I'll do so. If it's a white guy looking down his nose and going "Use Native American" instead of "Indian" I'll start doing so when he uses Euro-American" for me in every day speech. It's absurd.
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CanRay
post Mar 22 2011, 10:31 PM
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My name is CanRay, and I. Am. Canadian!
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Sengir
post Mar 23 2011, 10:03 AM
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QUOTE (Sparrowhawk @ Mar 22 2011, 10:05 PM) *
It's a matter of correctness, not one of social delicateness. Indians are from India.

The British are mostly Anglo-Saxons, Pedophiles are not "friends of children", and Shadowrunners are allowed to stand still.

The literal meaning of a word often differs from the meaning in which it is used, big deal...


PS: I'm German!
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phlapjack77
post Mar 23 2011, 10:08 AM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 23 2011, 06:03 PM) *
-philes-

means "to love", I think...

</pedantry>
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Sengir
post Mar 23 2011, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 23 2011, 11:08 AM) *
means "to love", I think...

</pedantry>

Yes, but in the meaning of "love thy neighbor" or "brotherly love"...a phrase which is also often used differently from its original meaning (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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