The impossible Move, Question about edge Options

[Stahlseele]

So, mostly curious here . .
Let us say a Character has Attribute and Skill of 1
CAN he Burn one point of Edge to get a critical (read 4 NET hits) Success?

[James McMurray]

Only if the threshold of the test is 2 or lower.

Automatically achieve a critical success on one action. The character
must be capable of carrying out the action—you can’t buy
a critical success for something you have no hope of achieving.
(Note that you do not refresh a point of Edge for getting a critical
success in this case.) If two opposing characters burn Edge in this
manner, they cancel each other out.

[Stahlseele]

So, basically, even if he has only 2 dice to begin with, he can end up with a safe 4 net hits for a critical success, as long as you would only need 2 hits to pass a given test with a success?

[Yerameyahu]

I guess so. I've never actually seen anyone use the automatic critical option… nor have Stat 1, Skill 1, for that matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Raven the Tricks...]

It's a doable number if their edge was at least 3 to start with, assuming the starting threshold was only 1, so I suppose that makes sense.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, you can't use Edge twice at once, so +Edge dice can't factor in *with* Edge-auto-crit. Nor the more zany argument that Edge could theoretically make the 6s explode forever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Raven the Tricks...]

Wasn't trying to say it could, although in this case I believe we're talking about permanently burning a point of edge for the crit success (if my memory on how that particular action works is correct), in which case you could actually use both, although you wouldn't need to. I'm just saying how the dice pool could theoretically be there.

[Yerameyahu]

No, that's what I'm referring to. In other threads, people have argued that you can spend a point of Edge, then burn a point of Edge to get a Critical Success on *any* test (because the 6s 'could' explode that high). I think that's bull, and counting it as 'double edge' neatly solves the munchkin temptation. Using it for +Edge, then Crit is only a milder version.

[James McMurray]

Meh, if it's so important to you that you'll permanently lower an attribute, I say go for it.

[Makki]

I can't see a GM denying this solution. If the player wants to blow 15/20/25 karma on one test, one should gladly let him and describe it in at least 36 sentences.

mechanically. remember edge does not rely on skill and attributes. you can use it for longshots in case your dicepool would be 0 otherwise. I think James McMurray's quote refers to things like jumping without the use of your legs or shooting while out of ammo.

[Yerameyahu]

My point is that they're *not* sacrificing anything… beyond what they already would be (burning the Edge for a Crit). The rules for that already say it has to be 'possible', so merely spending an Edge to make anything possible (if we're using the Threshold concept, of course) isn't exactly hurting them more.

If you're judging 'possibly' in a non-DP way ('Can you fly? No.'), then this isn't an issue, naturally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As you mentioned, Makki. I favor this definition myself, but I'm talking about the numerical antics I've seen mentioned on this board.

[Dakka Dakka]

"you can’t buy a critical success for something you have no hope of achieving" does not say that you can't hope with the exploding sixes of Edge. Hope has nothing to do with a high probability and with exploding sixes any threshold has a probability greater than zero. Even if the task would only succeed once in a blue moon with the use of exploding sixes, it is not impossible and thus you can hope for such a result.

I agree the wording is unclear and should have been something like "if the threshold is higher than your dice pool without Edge, you cannot burn Edge to gain a critical success".

[KarmaInferno]

I guess so. I've never actually seen anyone use the automatic critical option… nor have Stat 1, Skill 1, for that matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

<mutters something about a pixie crit-glitching a Pistol test with two dice>




-k

[Cain]

The rules are explicitly clear. You cannot spend Edge from your Edge pool twice on one test. However, there's no restriction placed on Burning Edge on the same test that you used your Edge pool on. In fact, other than the "nothing impossible" limit, there's no restriction on Burning Edge at all. In fact, I can see it happening: spending Edge on a test, critically botching it, and needing to Burn Edge to salvage things.

[Yerameyahu]

Sure. I'm specifically talking about intentional gamebreaking munchkinry. I believe the example I read involved summoning a ridiculously-high Force ally spirit, or something. The intent was abuse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As I mentioned, I've never even seen anyone Burn Edge 'for real' before. It's crazy.

Incidentally, does your example work? If you've *already* critically glitched, you can't just Burn Edge for a critical success, can you? Hand of God, sure, but that doesn't sound kosher. You should have to declare before the roll.

[Cain]

Sure. I'm specifically talking about intentional gamebreaking munchkinry. I believe the example I read involved summoning a ridiculously-high Force ally spirit, or something. The intent was abuse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As I mentioned, I've never even seen anyone Burn Edge 'for real' before. It's crazy.

Incidentally, does your example work? If you've *already* critically glitched, you can't just Burn Edge for a critical success, can you? Hand of God, sure, but that doesn't sound kosher. You should have to declare before the roll.

Crazy, but legal by RAW.

And by the rules, if you spend Edge pool for extra dice, and critically botch anyway, you can't spend any more Edge pool to negate it. However, you can Burn Edge to counter that critical failure. You can burn Edge at any time, before or after the roll; so waiting until after everything blows up in your face just seems dramatically appropriate. Now, to lean things in your favor, there's nothing saying that you won't still have a regular botch on top of a critical success (possible, just not likely; however, we are discussing Edge) and you can mitigate things that way.

I've burned Edge once, on a Escape Certain Death. I was going to if the drain on a Force 10 spirit would otherwise kill me, but thankfully it never came up. (The GM botched both the opposed Summoning and Binding rolls.)

[Muspellsheimr]

Skipped half the thread.

First, you cannot spend Edge more than once on any single test. Burning Edge is not subject to this restriction.
Second, by far the closest Rules as Written comes to defining "no hope of success" is a dice pool of 0, or something literally not allowed (such as shooting beyond a weapon's maximum range). If your dice pool is >0, yes, you can burn Edge for an automatic critical success.

[toturi]

I agree with Cain and Muspellsheimr. House rule as you will.