[X] My Assistant

[Wounded Ronin]

So, recently the ATF seized a shipment of 30 airsoft guns in Washington state claiming that with minimal work they can be converted to full auto rifles that shoot bullets. Search for it on YouTube, as there is some local news coverage.

...yeah.

So does this mean that all of a sudden possession of airsoft will cause the ATF to raid your house?

[CanRay]

I'm surprised the Mounties aren't breaking down more doors here in Canada. They're even more heavily restricted, in some ways, than real firearms are.

[Tanegar]

So, recently the ATF seized a shipment of 30 airsoft guns in Washington state claiming that with minimal work they can be converted to full auto rifles that shoot bullets. Search for it on YouTube, as there is some local news coverage.

...yeah.

So does this mean that all of a sudden possession of airsoft will cause the ATF to raid your house?

What. OK, granted that my knowledge of the interior workings of firearms is severely limited, but wouldn't you have to replace pretty much every working part in order to convert something that fires .177-cal (I seem to recall reading somewhere that Airsoft pellets are .177; correct me if I'm wrong) pellets by air pressure into something that fires live ammunition of any caliber whatsoever? And how does that qualify as "minimal work?"

[Yerameyahu]

Wait wait wait. Are you saying that you don't believe the crazy claims!? I'm shocked.

[Stahlseele]

what is this i don't even . .
who's responsible this?

[CanRay]

Typical of ATF claims for "Firearms", however. An attempt at an end run around the "US Right To Bear Arms" deal.

[hyzmarca]

What. OK, granted that my knowledge of the interior workings of firearms is severely limited, but wouldn't you have to replace pretty much every working part in order to convert something that fires .177-cal (I seem to recall reading somewhere that Airsoft pellets are .177; correct me if I'm wrong) pellets by air pressure into something that fires live ammunition of any caliber whatsoever? And how does that qualify as "minimal work?"

Technically, you replace a part from the AR-15 with a part from the airsoft M-4. It has the same function as replacing practically every working part of the airsoft gun, but is faster.


From what I understand, you take the lower receiver off of that particular model of airsoft M-4, swap out the trigger group with one from an AR-15 (this requires some shims) and slap the airsoft lower receiver onto an AR-15 upper receiver (requires some sanding and possibly drilling). The result is a select-fire rifle of dubious quality. It will work, but airsoft parts aren't exactly designed to handle the pressures produced by a real rifle. Catastrophic failure is likely.


I'm pretty sure that this only applies to those specific models. The simple solution would be to redesign the lower receivers to be less compatible with existing AR-16 uppers.

[Yerameyahu]

The simple solution is not to combine (plastic BB shooting game) with (obsessive realism model collecting). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Pick one.

[Tanegar]

Technically, you replace a part from the AR-15 with a part from the airsoft M-4. It has the same function as replacing practically every working part of the airsoft gun, but is faster.


From what I understand, you take the lower receiver off of that particular model of airsoft M-4, swap out the trigger group with one from an AR-15 (this requires some shims) and slap the airsoft lower receiver onto an AR-15 upper receiver (requires some sanding and possibly drilling). The result is a select-fire rifle of dubious quality. It will work, but airsoft parts aren't exactly designed to handle the pressures produced by a real rifle. Catastrophic failure is likely.


I'm pretty sure that this only applies to those specific models. The simple solution would be to redesign the lower receivers to be less compatible with existing AR-16 uppers.

OK, this makes the crazy claims a tiny bit more plausible. If I understand you correctly, it's not so much converting an Airsoft gun into a live firearm as using parts from a specific model of Airsoft gun to convert a specific model of semi-auto rifle into a select-fire rifle. Have I got it? I'm still a mite fuzzy on the legality of seizing things that might potentially someday in the indefinite future be used to commit a crime, though.

[Stahlseele]

it's the same with drugs and lethal poisons and everything that goes boom . . why are you so surprised?

[Tanegar]

Drugs, poisons, and explosives have a very narrow range of legitimate uses. We're talking about something whose primary purpose is completely innocuous, yet could be repurposed to criminal ends. When you start banning things on that basis, you have to ban damn near everything. I could strangle a man with a pair of pantyhose; should pantyhose be classified as a lethal weapon?

[Stahlseele]

You HAVE heard of the Weapons of a Woman have you not? *snickers*
we have somthing similar to this over here in germany . . anscheinwaffengesetz . . it is forbidden to carry anything that LOOKS like a real weapon at first glance in public . .
yes, this means no toy guns that are closer to resembling their real life counter parts than they they are to looking like something out of a cartoon . . and even then it's sketchy . .
and imagine the kind of hassle you have when you collect blades and the such . . try getting them from the store home without a car. or from home to conventions, if they at all allow them there in the first place . .
or to a blacksmith to repair/maintain them from time to time . .

Technically, you are not even allowed to transport a BREAD KNIFE or a set of STEAK KNIVES from a given store home, because they are all longer than is allowed to be carried in most cases . .

[KarmaInferno]

Back when I was in the toy industry, I recall the basic standards for toy guns had been 'upgraded' from the simple blaze orange barrel tip to requiring the whole gun be either a bright color or transparent plastic.

It was apparantly possible to spray-paint the tip of existing toy guns black, but for some reason the ATF decided the possibility of people just spraying the whole gun black wasn't a problem.




-k

[hyzmarca]

OK, this makes the crazy claims a tiny bit more plausible. If I understand you correctly, it's not so much converting an Airsoft gun into a live firearm as using parts from a specific model of Airsoft gun to convert a specific model of semi-auto rifle into a select-fire rifle. Have I got it? I'm still a mite fuzzy on the legality of seizing things that might potentially someday in the indefinite future be used to commit a crime, though.

It jas to do with the way the ATF defines firearms. The lower receiver is the gun, the rest are just parts. The lower receiver is the only part of the AR-15 that's actually regulated.

A select-fire lower receiver that can accept a functional upper receiver is an NFA weapon. It doesn't matter if that lower receiver is attached to a toy at the time.

The seizure of the airsoft guns in this case is a questionable due to the amount of modification needed to make it compatible with a real upper, but it isn't frivolous.

[CanRay]

I still find it odd the it's the same license to import Airsoft as it is for Weapons-Grade Nuclear Material in Canada. If you're licensed to import Airsoft into Canada, you can also legally buy components for Atomic Bombs.

To be fair, however, Nuclear Power Plants in Canada are buying up said material for their reactors, apparently, so there is a legitimate reason for that license to be in place. Just can't fathom why they combined the two together.

[toturi]

yes, this means no toy guns that are closer to resembling their real life counter parts than they they are to looking like something out of a cartoon . . and even then it's sketchy . .
and imagine the kind of hassle you have when you collect blades and the such . . try getting them from the store home without a car. or from home to conventions, if they at all allow them there in the first place . .
or to a blacksmith to repair/maintain them from time to time . .

Heh, if you think the German laws for this sort of thing are restrictive, you should try the ones here in Singapore.

[nezumi]

After some discussion the other day, an ATF agent I know attempted to seize my arms, after I demonstrated I could launch several bullets with a 'single triggering motion', and therefore qualified as a machine gun. When pressed, he clarified the right to bear arms is clearly different from the right to human arms.

[Stahlseele]

hu?

[Tech_Rat]

After some discussion the other day, an ATF agent I know attempted to seize my arms, after I demonstrated I could launch several bullets with a 'single triggering motion', and therefore qualified as a machine gun. When pressed, he clarified the right to bear arms is clearly different from the right to human arms.

I really hope you are kidding...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

After some discussion the other day, an ATF agent I know attempted to seize my arms, after I demonstrated I could launch several bullets with a 'single triggering motion', and therefore qualified as a machine gun. When pressed, he clarified the right to bear arms is clearly different from the right to human arms.

You are under arrest by the Pun Police. Drop your puns and lay down on the ground.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of humour. You have the right to speak to a commediant, and to have one present during any questioning. If you cannot afford a commediant, one will be provided for you at government expense.

*cuffs nezumi*

[KarmaInferno]

I uphold the right to arm bears.






-k

[CanRay]

Too bad Voytek isn't still around. I'd want his input on all this.

[Fix-it]

wait...recently? is there a news link for this? I recall this happening once a few years ago.

[StealthSigma]

After some discussion the other day, an ATF agent I know attempted to seize my arms, after I demonstrated I could launch several bullets with a 'single triggering motion', and therefore qualified as a machine gun. When pressed, he clarified the right to bear arms is clearly different from the right to human arms.

Does number that you can launch at once vary based on the size of the bullet?

[Adarael]

wait...recently? is there a news link for this? I recall this happening once a few years ago.

Yeah, in February of 2010, the ATF pulled this in Oregon and Tacoma. It's old news, or at least semi-old. In both cases, it was the work of Special Agent Kelvin Crenshaw. I suspect this is definitely a case of a special agent pulling a fast one to bump his stats. That's because Crenshaw got transferred out of Seattle to DC as Assistant Director of some kind of Internal Affairs division, and apparently cocked it up somehow, and got his ass demoted sent back to Seattle.

Also, the ATF overruled his decision and statement that airsoft guns were "firearms" in November 2010.