Rules Hacking the Hacking Rules, House Rule Options

[StealthSigma]

Which, in my games, they tend to do immediately after being foiled by a particularly nasty lock, custom program, or matrix loopback technique. Perhaps I weight knowledge skills as more useful than other GMs, but research and knowledge play a huge portion of the Success Pie of my runs. I cannot easily imagine a runner team breaking into a facility to steal something without having some logic-heavy folks do research into that company's security methods & tech, and then devising run-specific ways of defeating them. Anything less is likely to devolve into a running firefight. And if that's what you're after, it's a good thing you don't have to waste points on logic instead of having a combat hacker with gun skills out the ass.

"No campaign plan survives first contact with the enemy" This is one of the reasons I hate the amount of time some people put into planning a run. Knowing full well that the odds are in favor of portions of the plan, most likely the highly detailed portions, are going to have to be discarded with new plans improvised on the spot.

[Yerameyahu]

That's why I don't plan anything, just show up and wing it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I guess you could actually do that, sabs, to replace hot-VR or as a sort of beyond-VR UV-mode, but people *already* ignore hot-VR. Making it more annoying wouldn't help, alas.

[Kyrel]

As someone mentioned earlier, why construct something overly elaborate, when a simple solution can do the trick?

My personal favourite is Skill + Program Rating capped by Attribute (Logic) (or 2xLogic to allow for the rare 12 successes on 12 dice). Use of Edge removes the cap for the roll.

As written by an earlier poster, it basically means that while you can have both training and top-of-the-line programs, you still need the brainpower to use both to their full potential.

Any of you veterans outthere wants to tell me why this would be a bad solution?


/Kyrel

[sabs]

The one thing it does do, is seriously shorten the gap between technomancer and hacker.
It might actually make Hackers better than technomancers, because Hackers can more easily get their logic up to 8 or 9.

Lets look at it this way:
Hacking(6)+Exploit(6)+PuSHeD(1)+Customized Interface(1)+Optimized: Hacking(1)+EncephalonII(2)+Analytical mind(1): 18d6
I can with careful building add another 6 dice or so to that for 24d6. max 18hits
A technomancer on the other hand:
Hacking(6)+Exploit(6)+Threading(3)+analytical mind(1)=16d6 max 12 hits

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, Kyrel, that specific and already-published Optional Rule has been discussed in the handful of previous threads on this topic.

sabs, hackers are already better than technomancers, to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also, you can't seriously optimize for 'Hacking', can you?

[Warlordtheft]

As some one who used Logic+Skill (cap program rating) in a campaign for a year, I found some major issues with it. Technomanchers with threading reduced a rating 6 program to be something they just brushed off easily, Other items like the stealth program became very problematic cause of the non-opposed nature of some of the rolls. Data search comes to mind. Leading to having to modify even more rules to make it make sense.


Also, I don't think a good hacker will use logic as a dump stat. 1. It reduces his ability to program during down-time, and 2. As a GM you always have the right to refuse a character as given. 3. As a GM (if the player insists on min/maxing), you can make him realize it is a terrible choice in game as Adarael pointed out.

[sabs]

Oops, no but you can optimize for exploit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) which is almost as good.
I think that technomancers are way better than hackers. They ignore several rules, they have sprites that are trivial to summon and uberpowerful. They can thread up their programs from 4/5 to 7/8 fairly easily. And as they get karma they only get better (at hacking). Hackers need a bit of karma to top out, a chunk of cash, and then they're done. They can move on to other roles.

[StealthSigma]

What attributes do technomancers need?

[StealthSigma]

What attributes do technomancers need?

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, sabs, that's why I think hackers are better. Moving on is the fun part, and we never play extra-long/high-karma games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

StealthSigma, all of them?

[sabs]

Probably doing with skill+program max hits logic (or logicx2) is probably the most seemless way of doing it. It does not change dicepools. It doesn't muck with how Stealth works.

What I like about logicx2 is that it spanks dumpstats (logic of 1/2/3) but it doesn't really change anything for the logic(4/5/6/7/8/9) folks.

[Epicedion]

Letting Hackers buy successes to accomplish basic tasks also speeds up the hacking rules.
If you're going to do stat+skill+program you need to relook at system+firewall, and how stealth works.

btw, intuition+computer+analyze is not a bad grouping for matrix perception tests. It makes Intuition have a purpose. You can even roll willpower into for certain things. Willpower+Hacking+attack (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) for example.

I did revisit how Stealth works, above. OP is rewrite of how those work.

Willpower already factors into Black IC defense, and Intuition already factors into Initiative.

As someone mentioned earlier, why construct something overly elaborate, when a simple solution can do the trick?

My personal favourite is Skill + Program Rating capped by Attribute (Logic) (or 2xLogic to allow for the rare 12 successes on 12 dice). Use of Edge removes the cap for the roll.

As written by an earlier poster, it basically means that while you can have both training and top-of-the-line programs, you still need the brainpower to use both to their full potential.

Any of you veterans outthere wants to tell me why this would be a bad solution?


/Kyrel

I don't like dice caps, personally. They either matter way too much or never ever ever ever ever.

The one thing it does do, is seriously shorten the gap between technomancer and hacker.
It might actually make Hackers better than technomancers, because Hackers can more easily get their logic up to 8 or 9.

Lets look at it this way:
Hacking(6)+Exploit(6)+PuSHeD(1)+Customized Interface(1)+Optimized: Hacking(1)+EncephalonII(2)+Analytical mind(1): 18d6
I can with careful building add another 6 dice or so to that for 24d6. max 18hits
A technomancer on the other hand:
Hacking(6)+Exploit(6)+Threading(3)+analytical mind(1)=16d6 max 12 hits

Don't forget to add the Assist Operation action of sprites. A Technomancer can easily register several high-rating sprites in his downtime, providing huge boosts to any action.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm not sure how adding a set bonus of 1/2 program rating to any test that has a fixed number opposition at any time (which most of your proposed examples do) is better than changing it to skill + attribte + program rating. It's actually worse because it buys hits at a very favourable rate rather than having to roll for them.

Realistically you seem to have all of the problems of the 3 part DP (because you are increasing thresholds all over the place). Why not just use a three part DP? That puts the emphasis back on skills and attributes relative to program, especially given that program is already the cheapest of those to buy, so making it better (1 point adds 0.5 hits, rather than 0.3) seems uneeded.

In summary, a 3 part DP seems better than your proposed fixed, unless you are concerned about physically holding the required number of dice.

[Epicedion]

I'm not sure how adding a set bonus of 1/2 program rating to any test that has a fixed number opposition at any time (which most of your proposed examples do) is better than changing it to skill + attribte + program rating. It's actually worse because it buys hits at a very favourable rate rather than having to roll for them.

Realistically you seem to have all of the problems of the 3 part DP (because you are increasing thresholds all over the place). Why not just use a three part DP? That puts the emphasis back on skills and attributes relative to program, especially given that program is already the cheapest of those to buy, so making it better (1 point adds 0.5 hits, rather than 0.3) seems uneeded.

In summary, a 3 part DP seems better than your proposed fixed, unless you are concerned about physically holding the required number of dice.

The idea that's floating around is that Program > Person. I figured the best way to represent that was to make programs give static bonuses while leaving the variable part of success in the person's hands.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The idea that's floating around is that Program > Person. I figured the best way to represent that was to make programs give static bonuses while leaving the variable part of success in the person's hands.

I was under the impression that we were discussing the option that Person > Program. Hmmmmm. Must be another Topic Thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Epicedion]

I was under the impression that we were discussing the option that Person > Program. Hmmmmm. Must be another Topic Thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

My goal here was to give Person a fair shake, while still relying on Program, while avoiding hit caps which I hate. I cut my teeth on SR3, so I tend to think of things in terms of TN = Subsystem - Program Rating. That is, the Program dramatically affects the difficulty of an action, but the doing part still relies mostly on the hacker. That fits my preferred cyberpunk view of the hacker being master of his own destiny rather than truly at the whim of the machine.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My goal here was to give Person a fair shake, while still relying on Program, while avoiding hit caps which I hate. I cut my teeth on SR3, so I tend to think of things in terms of TN = Subsystem - Program Rating. That is, the Program dramatically affects the difficulty of an action, but the doing part still relies mostly on the hacker. That fits my preferred cyberpunk view of the hacker being master of his own destiny rather than truly at the whim of the machine.

Gotcha...

Why do you hate Hit Caps so much?

[Epicedion]

Gotcha...

Why do you hate Hit Caps so much?

Because those kinds of limitations are boring, and don't allow statistical outliers to create memorable events in unlikely places.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because those kinds of limitations are boring, and don't allow statistical outliers to create memorable events in unlikely places.

I guess... I don't think I have experienced that particular problem, to be honest. And in all honesty, we are only talking about Caps in two Areas of the Game. Magic and Hacking, both of which can be QUITE powerful in their own right. We do not cap regular skills in the game (Other than Matrix and Magic, since we use the same system for both), like some do.

[Epicedion]

I've had a chance to test out the house rules in the OP, and the results have overall been favorable.

The hacking on the fly / probing the target rules worked as intended, with a couple of close calls, but with mediocre rolls from both parties ended up with the hacker scraping by. So that worked. He also managed to pull of a few critical Decrypt actions, but he needed a couple tries.

The real fun came in when the hacker wanted to Edit some cameras by adding in quick playback loops. I figured the target threshold was about 2 normally, so I tacked that onto the Firewall rating (5) of the system (as per the house rule), ending up with a target threshold of 7. Since he was only getting +2 hits from his Edit program, he was looking for 5 hits out of his 11 dice (Logic 5 + Computer/Hacking 4 + Hot Sim bonus). With 5 cameras to edit, and a limited amount of time to work with (he was hacking them as his team advanced), he barely managed to get it all done before someone would've noticed the team. This was a pretty tough system to crack, and to get by he did have to throw some Edge at it.

Cybercombat hasn't happened yet, and I'm still considering running defense as Response + Intuition rather than Response + Firewall, since that seems to be giving Firewall double-duty on avoiding hits and resisting damage, which seems a little odd. Kind of like rolling Body with your Reaction roll to avoid getting shot.