SR4A Initiation Options

[IronDrakon]

Looking for some clarification.

According to SR4A when you initiate only your Magic Natural Maximum goes up not the Magic stat itself.

So is this correct for a mage with existing Magic 6 .

Init Grade 1 13 Karma + Raise magic to new Max of 7 35 Karma = 48 Karma

Init Grade 2 16 Karma + Raise magic to new Max of 8 40 Karma = 56 Karma.


Thanks

IronDrakon

[focke]

That's how I understand it. Rather pricey, but yes.

[BookWyrm]

Yep, that's how it works.

[IronDrakon]

Thanks,

and...

ACK thats expensive compared to the how it was done in earlier editions.


IronDrakon

[Socinus]

Holy hell that's expensive.

Did Karma awards get raised in SR4A?

[CanRay]

"OK, 'Run is over. You get UCAS$200, a gift certificate for 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) at Stuffer Shack, and two Karma each. Except for you, you get three for coming up with the GoTH plan."

[phlapjack77]

There's a bunch of ways to bring the cost down - joining a magical group, going on an astral quest, performing some ritual...I forget the complete list at the moment. It'll bring down the cost of the initiatiation by a few points, but not the cost of raising your Magic.

[Makki]

Holy hell that's expensive.

Did Karma awards get raised in SR4A?

yes. you should expect between 5 and 10 per run. depending on setting and GM.

[Muspellsheimr]

4-5 Karma is the absolute minimum I would accept & remain a player in the game, & that's assuming most things went wrong.

Expected reward is 7-8 Karma, with 10 being the usual upper limit. This is assuming 1 run = 1 session; I generally expect ~8 karma, +4 per each additional session for the run, assuming multi-session runs are uncommon/rare.

[ShadowWalker]

There are only two ways to decrease the cots. One for being in a group and having the group directly involved in your gaining in initiation level, that decreases the initiation cost by 20%.
The other way is to do one of the various meta-quests, these also decrease the initiation cost by 20%. You can combine both of these for a total reduction of 40%. These reductions
in no way affect the cost of increasing your magic attribute once you have gotten a new initiate level.

[Elfenlied]

Just get rid of <New Attribute>x5 costs.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just get rid of <New Attribute>x5 costs.

And Why, exactly, would you do that?

[Medicineman]

Just get rid of <New Attribute>x5 costs.

Thats not a good Idea
I'd rather stay with Karma x5 and more Karma
than with Karma x3 and way viewer Karma

Hough!
Medicineman

[Elfenlied]

And Why, exactly, would you do that?

Because it pretty eliminates attribute progression and encourages stronger minmaxing at chargen, IMO. In our games, a single run typically spans over the course of 2-3 session à 6-7h, and awards us with approximately 6-9 Karma. Assuming you play weekly, which we do, it takes a month of real world time under the x3 rule to increase an average attribute score, and up to two months to increase any of the special attributes like Resonance and Magic. And this assumes that you actually save up your Karma to do that, instead of buying skills etc.

If you actually play with x5, it'll take ages before you get to raise anything. Now, I understand that some people are playing campaigns that take well over a year to complete, and are arguably afraid of characters getting out of hand. However, this has never been the case with most groups I've played/DMed with. Most of our games have ended at ~100 Karma, with the longest running being 160. And in that scope, x3 is a lot more reasonable than x5. As always, YMMV.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because it pretty eliminates attribute progression and encourages stronger minmaxing at chargen, IMO. In our games, a single run typically spans over the course of 2-3 session à 6-7h, and awards us with approximately 6-9 Karma. Assuming you play weekly, which we do, it takes a month of real world time under the x3 rule to increase an average attribute score, and up to two months to increase any of the special attributes like Resonance and Magic. And this assumes that you actually save up your Karma to do that, instead of buying skills etc.

If you actually play with x5, it'll take ages before you get to raise anything. Now, I understand that some people are playing campaigns that take well over a year to complete, and are arguably afraid of characters getting out of hand. However, this has never been the case with most groups I've played/DMed with. Most of our games have ended at ~100 Karma, with the longest running being 160. And in that scope, x3 is a lot more reasonable than x5. As always, YMMV.

Have you considered that you may not be getting enough Karma in your game?

[Elfenlied]

Have you considered that you may not be getting enough Karma in your game?

How much would you suggest would be reasonable?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

How much would you suggest would be reasonable?

5 would be the minimum, 10 the maximum. 7-8 being the average..

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How much would you suggest would be reasonable?

Well, SR4A recommends up to 15 per Session/Story. Sounds like your Stories run about a Month or so.

Each Session, I would probably award the following...

Character survived... 1 or 2
Character was particularly brave or smart... 1 or 2
Good roleplaying... 1 or 2

So 3-6 Per Session (Probably 4 or so on Average)

End of the Story, I would add the following...

Character pushed the storyline forward 1
Character had the right skills at the right place and time 1
Player impressed group with humor or drama 1 or 2
Overall adventure challenge/threat level 1 to 4
Per mission objective group fulfilled 1

Could Get excessive for Story End, Dependant upon how many objectives there were. I will Assume 3 objectives.
So likely an Additional 7-13 Karma for Mission Completion.

So for a 3 Week Run... you should get somewhere between 19-26 Karma.

Of course, that is just me. Even my GM is not quite so extravagant. Even still, the x5 Cost has not been an insurmountable impediment.

[IronDrakon]

Tymeaus,

Thanks for the the more detailed reply on karma rewards. That seems much better in time takes to expand you magic though still way slower than earlier editions.

It does make progression for magic types or technomancers a bit slower comapared to the other archetypes.

Getting ahold of of a power focus seems to a quicker, cheaper route to a larger dice pool.

There is an optional rule in the Streeet Magic errata to trade metamagic for a power point which would ease things somewhat though leaving full magicians out in the cold.

IronDrakon

[KarmaInferno]

It also has a side effect of explaining why there are relatively few initiates actually out there. And that folks with more than one or two levels of initiation are REALLY rare.




-k

[Epicedion]

A single point of Magic is a really big deal in SR4. It bumps up the basic Force rating of all of your spells, and improves all of your dice pools involving Magic. Magic used to be a limiter, and only contributed a couple of dice to the Spell Pool. In SR4, it should be expensive.

[Tyro]

Because it pretty eliminates attribute progression and encourages stronger minmaxing at chargen, IMO. In our games, a single run typically spans over the course of 2-3 session à 6-7h, and awards us with approximately 6-9 Karma. Assuming you play weekly, which we do, it takes a month of real world time under the x3 rule to increase an average attribute score, and up to two months to increase any of the special attributes like Resonance and Magic. And this assumes that you actually save up your Karma to do that, instead of buying skills etc.

If you actually play with x5, it'll take ages before you get to raise anything. Now, I understand that some people are playing campaigns that take well over a year to complete, and are arguably afraid of characters getting out of hand. However, this has never been the case with most groups I've played/DMed with. Most of our games have ended at ~100 Karma, with the longest running being 160. And in that scope, x3 is a lot more reasonable than x5. As always, YMMV.

The min/maxing is a problem with BPgen, not the attribute system. Attributes are crazy powerful, and most of them are still very easy to raise with cyber & fairly easy (less so than cyber, more so than karma) with magic. Raising the cost of attributes makes cyber & magic attribute boosts more badass and emphasizes skills. The way I see it, attributes aren't the sort of thing you SHOULD be improving hand over fist - when you get better at something, that's skill. Raising an attribute is more like concentrated bodybuilding, strength training, meditation to improve willpower, whatever. Those kind of things can take years IRL.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus,

Thanks for the the more detailed reply on karma rewards. That seems much better in time takes to expand you magic though still way slower than earlier editions.

It does make progression for magic types or technomancers a bit slower comapared to the other archetypes.

Getting ahold of of a power focus seems to a quicker, cheaper route to a larger dice pool.

There is an optional rule in the Streeet Magic errata to trade metamagic for a power point which would ease things somewhat though leaving full magicians out in the cold.

IronDrakon

No Problems...

Power Foci ARE a quicker route to power, in some ways. Which is why so many magical types take that route. But a Skilled Magician with Multiple Initiate Grades under their belt is a better option for magical growth. One is a path to power, and the other is a path to enlightenment.

As for the Trade Metamagic for Power Point. It does not increase the Magic Rating of the character. There is a big difference between a Power point and a Magic Point, though they may have some of the same benefits.

[Tyro]

<snip>
As for the Trade Metamagic for Power Point. It does not increase the Magic Rating of the character. There is a big difference between a Power point and a Magic Point, though they may have some of the same benefits.

Especially if you limit the level of a given adept power to MAG/2 rounded down, like I do.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Especially if you limit the level of a given adept power to MAG/2 rounded down, like I do.

Harsh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)