Limits on Magic, Discussion on Spells and What They Do Options

[Tashiro]

I've been wondering about the limits of magic in SR, and specifically what kind of spells could be designed within these limits.

Here's two spells used by a player in my game:
Fade (Realistic, Multi-Sense, Illusion)
Type: Physical, Range: Touch, Duration: Sustained, DV: (F / 2) + 1
Fade is an advanced stealth spell which conceals a willing target, dulling or masking their presence to the five senses. Because this is a physical spell, it can also conceal the target from electronic devices. Anyone who might sense the target must first resist the spell. The Hits scored on the spell becomes the Threshold to successfully sense the target with Perception.

Animus (Manipulation)
Type: Physical, Range: Self, Duration: Permanent, DV: (F / 2) - 2
The spellcaster can change sex -- whether male to female, or female to male. The caster can not change race and most features remain the same -- an individual looking at the caster will see a family resemblance, and will most likely mis-identify the target as a twin sibling. Hair, eyes, and skin marks are all kept, as is the general height and weight of the caster.

---

Other spells which were discussed included the idea of sustained or permanent transformations which did not involve living targets. In 3E there was a 'create food' spell, and we were discussing whether a mage could either create actual food from nothing (and what it would be like), or transmute some inert organic substance into actual food. Not just 'protein' but into something like salad leaves or a roast turkey. If the spell were sustained, this could get pretty macabre, but for a permanent transformation, turning a pound of soy into a hamburger with Real Meat ™ might be possible.

Thoughts?

[Glyph]

I think the Drain is way, way too low for the first one. Also, I don't think multi-sensory versions of invisibility are a good thing to allow - they have a lot of potential to disrupt game balance.

The second one, I would probably allow as a sustained spell, but permanent? No.

Personally, I consider the "create food" spell to be one I am glad they got rid of - spells should not create matter.

All my opinion, and I'm probably being a bit of a killjoy - different campaigns, different power levels. But I will say one thing - be really careful about allowing new spells that are dramatically different, or much more optimal, than the existing spells. Think about how they can affect game balance, and what kind of challenges that these new spells will be able to circumvent.

[Epicedion]

The drain on the first one should be +5. That's based off +0 for Invisibility's single-sense, +1 for each additional sense you're trying to hide, and +1 for it affecting technology.

As for the second one, I'll just leave this here: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[phlapjack77]

some quick thoughts:

Fade:
A multi-sense version of improved invis, limited to touch instead of LOS. Sure, why not?

Animus:
I don't understand this one. The spellcaster can change sex, but not race, general features, hair, eyes, skin, height or weight? So the caster can change genitalia, basically? But also any individual looking at the caster sees a family resemblance, thinking the caster is a twin sibling? Hmmmm. It sounds like a mana spell, since it seems like it (mostly?) clouds the minds of those perceiving the caster. And how is this spell more useful than the Mask / Phy Mask spells? Could be, I just don't see it...

Create Food:
Seems this is really just the Nourishment spell from SM, with some fluffy descriptions thrown in.

[phlapjack77]

The drain on the first one should be +5. That's based off +0 for Invisibility's single-sense, +1 for each additional sense you're trying to hide, and +1 for it affecting technology.

I thought the drain was off too, but using the spell-creation rules in SM, I think the drain is accurate. Rules for drain are a little too lax on multi-sense and so on, imo...

• Physical +1
• Realistic +0
• Multi-Sense +0
• Illusion Hides or Conceals +2
• Touch -2

Total drain: (F/2) + 1

[Epicedion]

I thought the drain was off too, but using the spell-creation rules in SM, I think the drain is accurate. Rules for drain are a little too lax on multi-sense and so on, imo...

• Physical +1
• Realistic +0
• Multi-Sense +0
• Illusion Hides or Conceals +2
• Touch -2

Total drain: (F/2) + 1

The Rule of Common Sense says that he shouldn't be able to combine the effects of two existing spells into one spell for the same Drain Value or less than either spell. He's combining Improved Invisibility with Stealth, with bonus effects stacked on top.

[Muspellsheimr]

@ Glyph and Epicedion: Read the spell creation rules before commenting on them.

@ Tashiro:
Fade would be a legitimate spell, except for how Illusion's work; they are essentially all-or-nothing, and are opposed. Anyone that would otherwise perceive the target needs to resist the spell. If they fail to do so (or the caster beats the Object Resistance, as appropriate), the spell has full effect & they should be unable to perceive them at all (enhanced version of Invisibility; still allowing a Perception check would fall under "Restricted Effect" and reduce Drain by another -1. Also, because of how thresholds & opposed tests work, it would be a penalty to Perception, not set threshold). Because of this, I much prefer designing my concealability spells as physical Manipulation effects, giving a dice pool penalty to Perception equal to spellcasting Hits - do away with all that opposed test crap.
Animus is a legitimate design (nothing prohibiting it, meets the criteria for a permanent effect), but is very poorly done. The most glaring problem is the lack of importance for Force or spellcasting Hits - they do nothing. I also would have put it together as a modified Shapechange effect (drain -2 [Touch], +2 [Permanent], -1 [Restricted Effect: Gender], -2 [Restricted Target: Personal], total [F÷2]+0). Remove the attribute boost of Shapechange, & find a way to fit spellcasting Hits +/- Force into the effect, & it's good.

[Muspellsheimr]

The Rule of Common Sense says that he shouldn't be able to combine the effects of two existing spells into one spell for the same Drain Value or less than either spell. He's combining Improved Invisibility with Stealth, with bonus effects stacked on top.

No, he's not. Anyone who wants to perceive the target must first resist the spell. If they fail, the Perception threshold is set by the spell. If they succeed, there is no effect as per Illusion mechanics. The spell does still have a few problems, as I outlined above.

[phlapjack77]

The Rule of Common Sense says that he shouldn't be able to combine the effects of two existing spells into one spell for the same Drain Value or less than either spell. He's combining Improved Invisibility with Stealth, with bonus effects stacked on top.

I def. agree with you, the drain seems way too low. But I think that would be the rules fault, not the players'. Still doesn't mean I would let it in a game I ran, but ymmv...

I'm more in the Camouflage camp myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Socinus]

I shall now read from the book of Street Magic

The Limits of Sorcery
Though spells can create many amazing effects, the power of sorcery in the Sixth World does have limits. Some of these limitations may be inherent in the nature of magic; others may simply be conditions magical theorists have yet to find a way around. Currently, sorcery obeys the following limitations, which form the base-line assumptions according to which all spells in this and other Shadowrun books were created. Players and gamemasters may choose to ignore or alter any or all of these assumptions, but doing so may unbalance their game.

Sorcery Cannot Affect Anything to which the User Does Not Have a Magical Link.
In the case of spellcasting, this link is provided by line of sight: the visual image of the target provides the magical connection between the caster and the target of the spell. For ritual sorcery, a sympathetic link (see p. 28) can provide the magical connection, in addition to standard line of sight or a ritual spotter. Without this link, sorcery cannot affect a target.

Sorcery Cannot Alter the Fabric of the Space/Time Continuum.
Spells cannot directly change distance or the passage of time. Teleportation and time travel are the holy grails of magical R&D departments the world over, but no one has been able to unravel the knotty problem of affecting space or time with magic. Spells can speed up or slow down processes, such as healing or chemical reactions, and allow subjects to move quickly, but they cannot directly alter time or space.

Sorcery Cannot Divine the Future with any Certainty.
Spells are rooted in the same present as their caster and cannot pierce the veil of time to predict the future with any great accuracy. Reliable techniques of long-range precognition do not exist. Spells designed to predict the future only provide clues and hints about possible events, and then only over a short span of time. The further into the future one attempts to divine, the more unreliable the results.

Sorcery Cannot Summon or Banish Spirits.
These abilities are the province of the art of Conjuring. Spells can, however, be used to damage or affect spirits or to create barriers that block or contain them.

Sorcery Cannot Raise the Dead
Though spells can heal, once a person has passed away, they are gone forever (though some view conjuring spirits as raising the spirits of the dead).

Sorcery Cannot Create Magical Items
Foci, vessels, and other items imbued with magic may not be crafted with spells; such handiwork requires the hands-on efforts of an enchanter.

Sorcery Cannot Bridge the Gap between the Astral and Physical Planes
Spells only have an effect in the plane on which they are cast. Spells cast on the astral have no effect on the physical, and vice versa. Likewise, spells cast in the astral or physical have no effect on the metaplanes, and vice versa.

Sorcery Cannot Create Complex Things
Though spellcraft can transform energy, spark elemental forces, and even provide nutrition, no magicians have yet determined a way for sorcery to create complex items (such as a gun or even a hammer) from mana alone—despite the best efforts of research corps to date. Sorcery can be used to fix and sometimes transmute complex items, but the days of summoning weapons from nowhere have not yet arrived.

Magic Is Not Intelligent.
Mana only does as it is told when manipulated by Magical skills such as Sorcery. Magical effects do not make independent decisions.

[Epicedion]

@ Glyph and Epicedion: Read the spell creation rules before commenting on them.

Mmm, no. Not that I haven't read them.

No, he's not. Anyone who wants to perceive the target must first resist the spell. If they fail, the Perception threshold is set by the spell. If they succeed, there is no effect as per Illusion mechanics. The spell does still have a few problems, as I outlined above.

I don't actually care about the mechanics here. It's the goal. There are certain things that are in the spell creation rules that you should simply not do. One of them is create a more powerful version of an existing spell (or in this case multiple existing spells plus additional effects) with meaningless restrictions and the same Drain Value.

I will quote a rule from Street Magic, and this is the most important rule of all:

Keep in mind that the gamemaster always has final approval over whether or not a new spell will be allowed into her game.

If that's the spell he wants in his game, fine, that's his call.

By strict RAW, however, I don't have to approve of that spell. Not that this decision would affect his or your game. If you only care about following the spell creation rules, you've pointed out the technical errors, and that's fine. But, following Step 7 of those rules, my suggestion is that he should oppose such a spell.

[Bodak]

The most glaring problem is the lack of importance for Force or spellcasting Hits - they do nothing.

That's the same for Fashion though (unless you consider undefined "cut" fluff). The extra hits could be used to reduce the sustaining time required to become permanent.

[Tashiro]

some quick thoughts:

Animus:
I don't understand this one. The spellcaster can change sex, but not race, general features, hair, eyes, skin, height or weight? So the caster can change genitalia, basically? But also any individual looking at the caster sees a family resemblance, thinking the caster is a twin sibling? Hmmmm. It sounds like a mana spell, since it seems like it (mostly?) clouds the minds of those perceiving the caster. And how is this spell more useful than the Mask / Phy Mask spells? Could be, I just don't see it...

This is a character I'd mentioned earlier, that has a dead sister hanging around him. When she wishes to possess him, this spell is used first, so the character can swap sexes, allowing her to take over and continue on. When she's done with the body, the spell allows him to swap back.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The drain on the first one should be +5. That's based off +0 for Invisibility's single-sense, +1 for each additional sense you're trying to hide, and +1 for it affecting technology.

Have to disagree here. Invisibility and Stealth are both Single Sense Spells. Multi Sense Spells do not add Drain per Sense added. It is a category that adds a set drain modifier. The limits of the spell are in the Fluff at that point. In this case. The user of the spell is still completely visible to Radar, or MAD Scanners. The visible effects of his presence still exist (he leaves footprints in appropriate mediums, Systems that measure weight still function, etc).

You are correct in that you may disallow this spell, or modify it until both parties are happy with it. But the spells, as presented, are still valid concepts, even if they may have some conceptual errors, as Muspellsheimr has pointed out.

[MK Ultra]

I´m with Glyph on the create food. If you let ppl create food from nothing, it´s only a short while, untill they want to summon a big ham, to use as a club or produce highly concentrated acetic acid, capsaicin or some kinds of poisons and drugs..
Now changing digestable raw materialy, as the op suggests, like soy- or myco-protein, etc. into a nice meal with improved taste texture and looks, but same nutricious content sounds like a fair application, to me. IMO, 1 or 2 net hits won´t be better then any soy-based fastfood, though. as in cooking, however, the better the base material, the better the possible result.

[sabs]

Also, if it's going to make you invisible to cameras, and stuff, shouldn't that only work if you had enough net hits to beat the camera's Object Resistance Rating? I mean a spell that makes you invisible to MAD Scanners, and Drones that's pretty damned awesome for f/2+1

[K1ll5w1tch]

The animus spell, what ever it's just a shapeshift spell under a different name.

But the Fade just like invis or improved invis are very unbalancing. I made a house rule that every time your struck in combat or attack the power of the spell decreases by one until you become visible. Otherwise you have invisible armys running around killing everything and never being seen. I hate invisibility with a passion it's one of those spells that's too good to not have.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also, if it's going to make you invisible to cameras, and stuff, shouldn't that only work if you had enough net hits to beat the camera's Object Resistance Rating? I mean a spell that makes you invisible to MAD Scanners, and Drones that's pretty damned awesome for f/2+1

Yep, still have to beat the OR.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The animus spell, what ever it's just a shapeshift spell under a different name.

But the Fade just like invis or improved invis are very unbalancing. I made a house rule that every time your struck in combat or attack the power of the spell decreases by one until you become visible. Otherwise you have invisible armys running around killing everything and never being seen. I hate invisibility with a passion it's one of those spells that's too good to not have.

Got a character with close on 30 spells, still have no Illusion or Combat Spells. So it is not a Must Have, by any means.

[Tashiro]

Actually, when I have to choose, I'll pick Trid Phantasm over Invisibility. It's one thing to conceal yourself, it's something else entirely when you can 'edit out' an entire shadowrun group using an interactive, dynamic illusion. Sure, the drain's reasonably higher, but you can mess around with the appearance of the environment with Trid Phantasm. Blood stains on the floor? Erased. A knocked out security guard? That's actually a sofa. Very, very handy.

[K1ll5w1tch]

Got a character with close on 30 spells, still have no Illusion or Combat Spells. So it is not a Must Have, by any means.

Maybe but the group I play with at least one mage always has it and it's the first spell ever cast.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Maybe but the group I play with at least one mage always has it and it's the first spell ever cast.

Interesting. Not one mage in our current group even has Invisibility (Improved or otherwise) or Mask (Improved or otherwise).

In our group, the first spells cast are usually Health Spells of one sort or another.
Mine are usually Manipulation or Detection Spells...

And I, too, prefer Trid Phantasm over Invisibility. Not for the same reasons, mind you. It is infintely more useful in my opinion.

[K1ll5w1tch]

Actually, when I have to choose, I'll pick Trid Phantasm over Invisibility. It's one thing to conceal yourself, it's something else entirely when you can 'edit out' an entire shadowrun group using an interactive, dynamic illusion. Sure, the drain's reasonably higher, but you can mess around with the appearance of the environment with Trid Phantasm. Blood stains on the floor? Erased. A knocked out security guard? That's actually a sofa. Very, very handy.

Why bother F3 improved invis on the group you don't even have to worry about blood stains and knocked out guards just walk by the guards don't ingage them and have the hacker open doors for you form across the street. Most Surveillance won't pick you up and most the mook guards won't have enough dice to beat a 3 threshold anyway. Unless it's very high security there's not likely a risk of ultra wideband radar being used or magic support. Walk in walk out.

[K1ll5w1tch]

Interesting. Not one mage in our current group even has Invisibility (Improved or otherwise) or Mask (Improved or otherwise).

In our group, the first spells cast are usually Health Spells of one sort or another.
Mine are usually Manipulation or Detection Spells...

And I, too, prefer Trid Phantasm over Invisibility. Not for the same reasons, mind you. It is infintely more useful in my opinion.

I guess your group has a different style of play. Mine is big on invis

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why bother F3 improved invis on the group you don't even have to worry about blood stains and knocked out guards just walk by the guards don't ingage them and have the hacker open doors for you form across the street. Most Surveillance won't pick you up and most the mook guards won't have enough dice to beat a 3 threshold anyway. Unless it's very high security there's not likely a risk of ultra wideband radar being used or magic support. Walk in walk out.

Relying upon that can get you killed, though. A previous character of ours relied upon that philosophy, and learned a horrible lesson about probabilities. It was not pretty.